Skip to content

ExpatSingapore

Home Message Board Contact Us Search

ExpatSingapore Message Board 25 May 2012, 7:52:08 am *
Username: Password: (or Register)
 
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Will the inevitable rise of PRC be a threat to world peace?  (Read 700 times)
equalizer
Newbie
*
Posts: 19


View Profile
« on: 15 June 2005, 0:10:00 am »


China has grown by leaps and bounds, economically, socially, and  militarily since the opening up of the Mainland in 1978 by the late Deng XiaoPing.

She was the third nation to put a man in space. Will the spinoffs from space technology lead to the rise of a belligerant nation?

Luckily we have Captain America to protect the world for our future and generations to come.!!!!!!!


All comments are welcome. Grin


Logged
ExpatSingapore Message Board
« on: 15 June 2005, 0:10:00 am »



 Logged
sundaymorningstaple
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 377



View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: 15 June 2005, 10:19:00 am »

yes
Logged

Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Patrick Mason
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 66


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: 15 June 2005, 11:17:00 am »

No.  Russian, India, Japan and the US won't allow it to get that far.  But it won't be the US who starts the containment process  
Logged

If you don't like it - tough!
T2K
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1130


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: 15 June 2005, 11:48:00 am »

A threat to world peace?  Do we have world peace now?  Have we ever?  

In that line of reasoning I would say no, as you can't threaten something that you don't have, though they may increase the constant level of world conflict which we have been in for all of human history.

As Patrick Mason pointed out, US involvement will be as a subsidiary to China's conflict with its immediate neighbors such as Japan or maybe Taiwan.

Logged
Snaffled

Posts: 167


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: 15 June 2005, 12:27:00 pm »

Many people would argue that China was not the 3rd country to have a person put in space, but the first.  
I believe it was a guy who launched himself using huge firework rockets.  The argument could be made that parts of him made it to space.  Would that count?

It was certainly the 3rd country to successfully bring a man BACK from space.

Logged
Joseph27
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1506



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: 15 June 2005, 12:57:00 pm »

No.  

Logged

"truth is a group of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms; a sum of human relation which is poetically and rhetorically intensified, metamorphosed and adored so that after a long time it is then codified in the binding canon."
Bored Manager
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 60


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: 15 June 2005, 13:48:00 pm »

From what I've heard from a friend who's mainland Chinese what you see from China is all smoke & mirrors. The growth and boom is restricted to the major cities and to around 5% of the population. This is exploited to bring in overseas investment. All the "demonstrations" are organized and for a purpose but the remaining 95% of the population just live their poor lives and probably have no interest in more aggressive national intent...
Logged
confusedcious
Full Member
***
Posts: 162


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: 15 June 2005, 13:50:00 pm »

"inevitable rise" may not be that inevitable.  A more pertinent question - will the US sabotage that peace in an effort to pre-empt and forestall that perceived inexorable rise?  Will it resort to subterfuge and intrigue?  Will it revert to the cold war containment strategy now that the old adversary Russia has imploded and the new terrorist effort is going no where?

Witness the US's new security arrangement with Japan.  Witness Japan's new found assertiveness.  And witness the recent spate of anti-China "researches" emanating from the Heritage Foundation.

Logged
Joseph27
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1506



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: 15 June 2005, 17:19:00 pm »

That is a fair call from confusedcious – I dont believe that China presents a huge threat to regional security – what I do envisage is a deliberate strategy from their neighbors to contain them.  ASEAN is largely about this but of course that is more of a regional response – the US response is more about geo political maneuvering.  Energy is a prime motivator and over the past several years the US has entrenched themselves deep into Eurasian in a further of containment.  The Chinese government is fully aware of this and Chinese think tanks have been monitoring this but China is not about to start a fight with the US – a fight they know they would lose.  Chinese government strategy will not force an open conflict – however nor will they simply bend over to US demands.  The coming decades offers a plethora of new volumes on 21st Century foreign policy between the World and China – one would guess that neo realism will remain the flavor of the century.  
Logged

"truth is a group of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms; a sum of human relation which is poetically and rhetorically intensified, metamorphosed and adored so that after a long time it is then codified in the binding canon."
equalizer
Newbie
*
Posts: 19


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: 15 June 2005, 20:29:00 pm »

>>>neo realism will remain the flavor of the century.

What is neo realism?

Logged
confusedcious
Full Member
***
Posts: 162


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: 06 July 2005, 16:27:00 pm »

US shifting its gun sights.  "How we would fight China" can be found here:  http://www.tuur.be/duck/

America's irreplaceable ally
   
JERUSALEM POST
June 16, 2005
Column One: By CAROLINE GLICK

IN an in-depth article entitled "How we would fight China" published in the June issue of the Atlantic Monthly, military correspondent Robert D. Kaplan analyzes the encroaching specter of a cold war between the US and China. He also sets out the strategies and tactics that the US military's Pacific Command is constructing to contend with the emerging reality.
In his words, "the center of gravity of American strategic concern is already the Pacific, not the Middle East." From the US military's perspective, "the current epoch of Middle Eastern conflict... will start to wind down during the second Bush administration."

Kaplan quotes a US Marine general in the Pacific Command who explains that the nascent US strategy for dealing with China will be based on multilateral military cooperation, or as he put it bluntly, it will be "military multilateralism on steroids." As its Atlantic alliances with NATO countries are breaking down in the face European rejection of America's decision to fight Islamic imperialism rather than appease it, the US is quietly building deep military alliances with countries such as Singapore, India, Australia, Japan and Thailand, which will all play key roles in containing China in the coming cold war in the Pacific.

Kaplan notes that one of the US's Achilles' heels in building this alliance structure is the technological gap between the US military and these crucial allies in the Pacific. As he writes, "Getting militarily so far ahead of everyone else in the world creates a particular kind of loneliness that not even the best diplomats can always alleviate, because diplomacy itself is worthless if it's not rooted in realistic assessments of comparative power."

Kaplan's report points to a strategic reality that US policymakers in Washington seem intent on ignoring. Israel's military sales and strategic military ties to linchpin states in the Pacific, like Singapore and India, have made it possible for these states today to center so prominently in American long-term strategic planning for its emerging cold war with China.

Israel was the first state to offer military assistance to Singapore, back in 1965 when that tiny island nation's entire military amounted to one battalion. For the next 10 years Israel was the only state assisting the Singaporeans, who one US military official interviewed by Kaplan referred to today as "just awesome in every way."

Israeli military officials involved in strategic cooperation with Singapore explain that the relationship has advanced to the point where most of the arms sales take the form of joint military ventures. Israel sells Singapore weapons systems that are tailor-made for its needs, and Singapore finances much of the research and development of these systems. Until it was outpaced by India, Singapore was the Israeli military industries' largest client. Sales range from hundreds of millions to billions of dollars per year.

While military cooperation with India has only become prominent in recent years, Israel was assisting India militarily as early as the 1960s, during its war with Pakistan. Today, between multi-billion dollar annual military sales and joint training exercises, Israel's strategic importance for the modernization of the Indian military is undeniable.

In cultivating its relationships with countries like Singapore and India, Israel's defense planners have followed a clear rationale that fuses commercial and strategic concerns. On the one hand, for Israel to maintain its military superiority over the Arabs, it must have a cutting-edge arms industry. For the industry to remain state-of-the-art, Israel must develop export markets to make its research, development and production costs manageable and sustainable. On the other hand, Israel has a strategic, long-term interest in developing ties with countries like India and Singapore, which share similar threats and concerns, because at the end of the day, these states form natural alliances with Israel.

Today, rather than thank Israel and India and Singapore for their forward thinking, whose importance to the US is unquestionable, the US is punishing them. This week it was reported that following Israel's misguided sale of Harpy aerial drones to China, Washington is now demanding control over its weapons exports to India and Singapore.

There can be no doubt that Israel's decision to sell advanced weapons systems to China was strategically blind. China does not only threaten US interests. Through its missile sales to Iran and Saudi Arabia, it also threatens Israel's national security interests. In the wake of US wrath over the Harpy deal, Israel has corrected its behavior and agreed not to sell weapons systems to China in the future.

It is more than possible that the US attempt to take away Israel's independence in developing its exports markets is simply an attempt to hitch a ride on the current crisis with China to advance the interests of US weapons manufacturers, who have trouble competing with their Israeli counterparts. Yet in so acting, not only is the US harming its relations with Israel and damaging Israel's reputation internationally, it is also insulting Singapore and India by acting as though there is something wrong with these US allies' acquisition of advanced weapons systems.

In comparing the ease of crafting a strategy for contending with China to the difficulty of formulating policy on the Middle East, Kaplan makes one of the most common American mistakes in characterizing the constraints on their actions in the Arab world. Kaplan writes, "Our actions in the Pacific will not be swayed by the equivalent of the Israel lobby; Protestant evangelicals will care less about the Pacific Rim than about the fate of the Holy Land."

Yet what Israel's cultivation of its own bilateral strategic ties with countries like Singapore and India shows is that when Israel is behaving in a strategically responsible way, it is also advancing America's strategic interests. This is the case because, at the end of the day, the two countries share the same enemies and therefore are drawn to the same potential allies.

That is, the foundation of the US-Israel alliance is not American altruism or domestic political pressure to save God's Chosen People from destruction. The rationale behind the US-Israel alliance is the fact that Israel is a strong, self-sufficient democracy whose strength and stability, both locally and globally, enhance US national security.

When, as happened this week, Palestinian Authority cabinet ministers insanely announce that Israel is trying to poison the Palestinians by selling them cancer-causing juices, there should be no place for doubt as to who America's ally is in the Middle East. Indeed, the levels of cultural anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism in Palestinian society and the Arab world should make it absolutely clear to Washington that a strong Israel is a national security necessity.

Yet, in the Americans' haste this week to humiliate Israel and emasculate its arms industry, even at the expense of its other allies, we see a disturbing indication that as the Bush administration slogs through its second term, it is intent on ignoring the strategic realities of the region and indeed of the global strategic environment, preferring instead to try to appease the Arabs and the Europeans at Israel's expense in the hopes of receiving their cooperation in the future.

This latest American move was not carried out in a vacuum. It comes against of backdrop of a disconcerting pattern of behavior by the administration that leads inexorably to the devastating conclusion that the US is moving to abandon its alliance with Israel. The publication of the federal indictment against former Pentagon analyst Larry Franklin this week is case in point.

From a perusal of the charges against Franklin, the following picture emerges: Franklin, a hawk on Iran's nuclear weapons program, sought to bring his views to the attention of decision-makers. In so doing, he did what countless Washington policy analysts do on a daily basis. He sought to build a coalition with like-minded thinkers outside the government.

According to the indictment, Franklin passed no significant classified information to AIPAC officials or to Naor Gillon at the Israeli embassy. He received no compensation for his relationships with them. All he did was talk about Iran with people who share his concerns in the hope that they could – through their official dealings with administration officials – advance his views.

Franklin's one crime, it would seem, was his unquestioning view of Israel as a strategic ally of the US at a time when powerful circles in Washington are trying to disengage from this alliance. Had he conducted identical conversations with British diplomats or pro-Japanese lobbyists, there is little doubt that he would still be sitting behind his desk at the Pentagon.

Franklin has pleaded innocent to all charges submitted against him. His trial is set to start on September 6. To a degree, what will really be on trial will be the question of whether the US does or does not view Israel as its ally.

And so the question necessarily arises: If the Bush administration is planning to abandon Israel, who does it think will replace it? Egypt, an economic basket-case run by a dictator who galvanizes popular support by cultivating societal hatred of America? Saudi Arabia, which is now pushing a policy with the International Atomic Energy Agency that will allow it to accumulate small quantities of uranium and plutonium which it could easily transfer to terrorist organizations for the purpose of attacking the US?

Israel was wrong to sell weapons systems to China. But the damage done to US national security interests has been effectively brought under control. The damage that the US's increasingly hostile position toward Israel is doing to US national security interests will not be so easily contained. The positive consequences for America of its alliance with a strong and secure Israel are enormous and unique. The negative consequences of an abandonment of Israel will be equally vast.

Why would Singapore or India or any other US ally trust an America that would abandon Israel? And how will the US be more secure if it increases its dependence on Arab regimes that are inherently hostile to it and everything it stands for?

Logged
Mrs Miggins

Posts: 26


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: 07 July 2005, 9:04:00 am »

I am confused when people raise this issue. People back home seem to think that the Chinese Race are out to dominate and smash everything to bits around them. From what I see the Chinese Race including the spin offs (Taiwan, Singapore, HK) are the most peaceful and least aggressive people on the planet! So why the scaremongering.
Logged
confusedcious
Full Member
***
Posts: 162


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: 07 July 2005, 10:35:00 am »

I guess it is the Golden Rule.  He who has the gold sets the rules.  Might is right.

In this unipolar world where the US is so much more powerful in every way (military, technology, economy, etc) than the rest of the world, it can pretty much do what it wants - sometimes unilaterally and oftentime ultra vires.

When it has reign so long unchallenged, every little bit of what others do can be perceived as a challenge.  Double standards, if you ask me.

Recent example. CNOOC's bid for Unocal is made out to be China buying up corporate America.  With national security scaremongering thrown in for good measure.  Reality - China has todate invested about US$490 million out of US$1,500,000 million of total foreign direct investments into the US.  On the other hand, the US has invested US$2.1 trillion into other countries, including US$15 billion in China.

Example - China intends to build its first aircraft carrier.  This is seen as aggressive intention.  God knows how many aircraft carriers the US has and already in operations.

In the Shangri-La Dialogue held in Singapore a couple of months ago, Donald Rumsfeld sensationalised the increased defence spending of China and wondered out loud why it is doing so.  For crying out loud, the amount China spend, both in absolute terms and as a % of GDP is tiny compared to the US.

What to do?  If you are the top dog, you can pretty much say what you like and do what you like.

Logged
Patrick Mason
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 66


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: 07 July 2005, 17:05:00 pm »

From a purely military view point:

The best "enemies" are ones who can't hurt you.  

There are no double standards in any country wanting a clear margin of 'saftey' over any other rival.

How this is margin is formed is what is to be debated.  America has a done a remarkable job over the last 50 years of sustaining it's national interests over and above all others.  

At the end of the day that's what good governments should do - what's best for them - preferebly not at the expense of other nations.

I'd suggest as a starting point for people who want to understand the whole american / china dynamic that people look into Samuel P. Huntington's book "clash of the civilizations and remaking of the world order"

Interesting read and intellectual framework to build your preceptions of current events around. Not specific to China / USA policy, but gives a good grounding to begin with.

Logged

If you don't like it - tough!
confusedcious
Full Member
***
Posts: 162


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: 08 July 2005, 8:45:00 am »

<<<From a purely military view point:
The best "enemies" are ones who can't hurt you. >>>

Agree with you absolutely.  Sun Tze would even go further - the best victory is never to have to fight a war.

<<<There are no double standards in any country wanting a clear margin of 'saftey' over any other rival.

How this is margin is formed is what is to be debated. >>>

Yes, it is in every country's interest to stay on top and maintain its advantages.  How this margin is formed is exactly what I am debating - it is done through double standards.

Let's not be shy here and call a spade a spade.  If "do what I say, but not what I do" is not double standards, then what is?  If "what is good for the gander, but not good for the goose" is not double standards, then what is?

<<<At the end of the day that's what good governments should do - what's best for them - preferebly not at the expense of other nations.>>>

Agreed.  But what some developed countries are doing ARE at the expense of the other nations.  Having done all the nuclear testings, they have now banned it.  These are at the expense of the other countries.  We are not debating the rights or wrongs of these actions per se, just recognising them as double standards.

Most countries (not just the US) and practically all politicians practise double standards.  All incumbent political office holders will do all they can to keep their office.  A lot of what they do are double standards.  I choose to label them as such.  You would rather not call a spade a spade.  Do you prefer to use the word "hypocrisy" instead?

<<<I'd suggest as a starting point for people who want to understand the whole american / china dynamic that people look into Samuel P. Huntington's book "clash of the civilizations and remaking of the world order"

Interesting read and intellectual framework to build your preceptions of current events around. Not specific to China / USA policy, but gives a good grounding to begin with.>>>

Heard of the book many years ago, but never got round to reading it.  But I was under the impression that the REAL clash is between the western civilisation and Islamic civilisation.

Yes, I agree with you that every country has its legitimate concerns and self interest to protect.  Double standards are everywhere if you care to look.  Cases can be made for both sides.  Just an example, China is one of the UN Security Council member with veto power.  It is now trying to prevent Japan from joining this inner group.  And even if Japan gets in, it may not get the veto power.  To me this is also some kind of double standards.  

Trade is another area where there are lots of double standards and hypocrisy.  The US keeps harping on its trade deficit in goods, conveniently forgetting that in the trade of services, it is enjoying huge surpluses.  And whose fault it is regarding the trade deficit anyway.

Logged
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines