Death Penalty

[Jean Jeudi]

WASHINGTON, June 20 —  A divided Supreme Court reversed itself Thursday and ruled that executing the mentally retarded is unconstitutionally cruel.

What amazes me from the above text taken from CNN today is that they ever killed mentally ill/retarded people. What kind of society is this anyway ?

[This message has been edited by Jean Jeudi (edited 21-06-2002).]

[KatyF]

Check out the Amnesty International site.  Sadly it happens all the time, most notably in Texas.   Executions also occur amongst those who committed crimes when they were minors but who are, after many years on death row, now adults.  I don't want to get into an anti-US row, as I'm sure these things happen elsewhere, but the US executions of these unfortunate criminals receive the most publicity.  And no, I haven't forgotten the victims.  But I will never see how two wrongs make something right.

[Joseph27]

If a 'mentally retarded' person commits a henious crime and you come home to find your wife and daughter raped and murdered (and not necessarily in that order) - does it really matter that that person has a mental illness - that his/her lawyer probably helped diagnose...?

Frankly speaking why should a person who is mentally deranged and commits a capital crime be allowed to live anyway?  The death penaly is for punishment and prevention (of others of course  ) and sometimes it helps rid a society of its least appealling citizens.  

There are those who passionately argue for the rights of every human being - yet the problem with so many of these proponents of such a civilised discourse is that they have never faced the hand of those they choose to defend. So many people live in an ivory tower of idealism and never seem to appreciate that there are those out there who dont believe and dont care about the same things they do.

In short - if someone commits a crime where they can be charged with murder - let em hang - blind, deaf, dumb, black, white, in a wheel chair, on a horse, spastic - I dont frankly care -   if they were so irresponsible that their actions were brought on by definition of their character they should be taken care of and never let into society....

[KatyF]

Sure, Joseph, but what if society doesn't want to take care of the afflicted person?   People with mental problems have been released into so-called "community care" since the 70s, at least.  And you avoid another question: if a 25 year old has a mental age of, say, 8, and kills someone, shouldn't that at least beg the question of clemency?

[bluemousemonkey]

Joseph 27 - 'character' is NOT what you're talking about. There are VAST differences between people with characterological disorders (or personality disorders) and people with psychopathological disorders/malfunctioning.
People who have been diagnosed as having 'mental retardation' as such do not have a psychological capacity which has parity with chronological age developmental achievements. In other words, you cannot have or insist on equivalence of social punishment deterence, when you are dealing with an entirely different set of variables for consideration.Difference in degree is NOT diiference in kind, especially here.
Your beliefs ignore the variables, are unsophisticated (even if it is a wind-up tactic) and you really need to examine your lack of real  - as distinct from ideal -compassion for those vastly different in their psychological make-up.
What you're advocating is intellectual bigotry in the guise of apparent ethical contemplation. Unbelievable lack of erudition I have to say.

[qwerty]

Sometimes I wonder how many mentally retarded persons are living normal life until they commit a crime. In Europe, where I come from, more often than you want to believe, murderers are found to be mentally retarded and therefore put to an institution instead of prison. To kill someone means that everything is not ok inside your head but does that justify the killing and entitle you for the treatment to cure your brain ?
I know this is not so straigth forward but pampering the criminals in Europe has gone too far. Not that I admire all the things Spore offers but for one the way criminals are treated here is much better than in my home country.
I must be retarded posting a comment like this......

[Joseph27]

Bluemousemonkey – you are right in suggesting that my posting was a bit of a wind up – I don’t mind admitting that it was.  I kind of miss Antoine – since his departure, its not as fun and as heated on this page.

However that being the case – and eventhough my prior tone was overly harsh – I must continue to say that if a 25-year-old person, regardless of whether they suffer from a characterological or psychopathological disorder commits a crime that results in the brutal death of someone, then they should be punished according to the law, and if that law meters out the death penalty then sobeit.  If they are fit enough to be considered citizens in society and walk freely then they should face the same laws as everyone.

Now here I am only talking about harsh crimes – take for example 30 year old diagnosed as having a psychological capacity akin to that of an 8 year old.  That person is seen as a part of society, they are given a pension to help them live and usually help from a social worker – some would even support their right to procreate.  Now if one day that person lashes out and rapes and kills a little girl what should be done with them? Put them in an institute until some supposedly qualified state employed psych says they are fit enough to sent back into society – or punish them as you would anyone else?

Qwerty I agree with you in saying the criminals are too pampered in Europe and indeed most western countries.  Unfortunately in the West we have developed an entire culture around lying and justifying.  It’s not the crime that one commits but how good ones lawyers or social workers are at either lying about their guilt or conversely justifying why they were preordained to commit the offence. Either society poorly conditioned us or daddy used to beat us up… I like the concept behind Singapore’s justice system. I like that if any member of my family is attacked, they will be revenged.

Now I understand that this possibly shows an, ‘unbelievable lack of erudition’ and I should seek to understand every facet of mental health but frankly I haven’t the time or inclination to do so.  

[KatyF]

Alright, Joseph, I know you're winding us up, but I can't resist.

The question is: does a man over the age of 18 but who has a mental age of below (not sure of the legal statute but, say 12) have a real comprehension that his acts can kill?  Take the 25 year old/mental age 8 man away and put in his place an ordinary 8 year old boy, because that's what you're talking about.  OK, the 25 year old has the capacity to rape, but if an 8 year old were to murder someone (and yes, it does happen - remember Jamie Bulger?) would it be alright to string up the 8 year old?  I'm not crazy about the idea, and I can't see any difference between the two "cases", myself.

[KatyF]

Joseph, I believe you've lived in Oz and you must have seen many many people there who should obviously be in a hospital.  

And are they pampered?  You've got to be joking.  Unless you mean the bus shelter is looking clean.

Social worker?  Those overworked, underpaid people who only get to see those "clients" who turn up?  

Good grief, I used to live in Freo and know plenty of mentally ill people, amongst whom I count my mother-in-law and my brother-in-law.  

Whether through drugs, alcohol, usually both, and congenital mental illnesses, the chances of them being well enough to get on a train and go up to Perth to see their doctor for a new prescription, let alone chat to a social worker, are virtually nil.

These are people who should be in a half-way house but are not.  Most are dumped.  By their families, who have had enough.  By society, which couldn't give a sh*t.

Violent?  Well, I've never seen it in these guys except for some loudmouthing, but I've seen plenty of half-ar*sed kids off their faces on booze/drugs/glue kicking the hell out of whoever/whatever they like.

Sorry, but this is a subject that gets me going.

[Joseph27]

KatyF - with the killers of the Jamie Bulger I couldnt help but to want to see them dead.  But then that only qualifies me to be an English judge 250 years ago

I appreciate that my post is full simplistic ravings and I cannot deny it - I have never lost anyone close to me (touch wood) I have a very comfortable life and have very limited experience with mentally ill people.  I just want to make this page a tad more lively

[KatyF]

Good on you Joseph - I know you do, and I know you were stirring.  And I also know you mean well!  Cheers.

[Joseph27]

After drinking alcohol and smoking dope, Daryl Atkins abducted Eric Nesbitt, drove him to a nearby automatic teller machine, forced him to withdraw money, then drove him to a vacant lot and shot him eight times in the throat, chest, stomach, arms and legs.

At the original trial, witnesses testified that Atkins was "mildly" mentally retarded – he had an IQ of 59. The jury also heard evidence of Atkins's 16 earlier convictions for violent crimes. They sentenced him to death. The Supreme Court overturned that decision in Atkins v Virginia. They ruled that the death penalty cannot be imposed on mentally retarded offenders.

*******************************

Sorry but that just sux - he should have been executed - regardless.  As I said in my earlier post - what Lawyers can make up...

Everything just comes down to how well you can justify - KatyF - just one question =  
what if it was your husband who was taken to the ATM made to withdraw cash and then be shot 8 times..  Even an 8 year old knows the difference between right and wrong.  

The man should have been put to death

[KatyF]

Oh, come on, Joseph - the guys's got the IQ of a cauliflower!  Much better to rinse him, cut him into little pieces and lightly boil.  Cheese sauce would be nice.

[tinky winky]

KatyF -- I'm ambivalent re death penalty for mentally retarded persons.  However, there is a logical flaw in your comparison of an adult with the mental age of eight and an actual eight year old.  The eight year old still has the possibility of further mental growth that, with proper care, could develop empathy.  The adult who is mentally retarded does not.

[KatyF]

True enough.