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Author Topic: Are the British and Yankees proud of your history??  (Read 376 times)
the other side of town
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« on: 03 March 2005, 21:47:00 pm »

Are the British and Yankees proud of their history??

U got Pax Britannia

Pax America... and what else.

The British and the Americans were collectively some of the greatest colonisers in the 18th and 19th centuries

The Brits and later the Yankees plundered and ravaged colonized lands for their natural resources, carved up territories, dehumanized the native population, raped the lands and the natives, lord over and condemned the native population to servitude and slavery.


They brought untold miseries and sufferings to millions of people who just happened to be born at the wrong time and the wrong place.

The Portuguese, British, Americans ...et al exploited wholesomely whatever countries, people and their resources for hundreds of years up to the 20th century.

[This message has been edited by the other side of town (edited 03-03-2005).]

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« on: 03 March 2005, 21:47:00 pm »



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T2K
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« Reply #1 on: 03 March 2005, 22:40:00 pm »

Please enumerate the colonies which America had in:
-the 18th century (hint: America didn't exist until the last quarter of that century)
-the 19th century

Presumably, there will be at least a couple dozen colonies, and I'm sure you know exactly which ones they are, so this is a simple request.

Don't worry, lots of people are historically illiterate.  Now we know you are one of them.

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foreigner
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« Reply #2 on: 03 March 2005, 22:54:00 pm »

>>Please enumerate the colonies which America had in:
-the 18th century (hint: America didn't exist until the last quarter of that century)
-the 19th century
Presumably, there will be at least a couple dozen colonies, and I'm sure you know exactly which ones they are, so this is a simple request.<<

=========

Ya, juz do a goggle search and we can know the colonies.  USA only gained Independence in 1776. So USA came much later and were not so sinful colonizers unlike the European powers.

Offhand, I know that Philippines were colonized by the Americans.

Let me guess...they try to colonise the gooks and were defeated??? hahahaha~~~~

on a light note...

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T2K
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« Reply #3 on: 04 March 2005, 9:14:00 am »

So, you've got one - The Philippines.  And it's debatable whether that was a colony or not, as it was taken from Spain in the Spanish-American War and given its own independence within 50 years (in 1946).

At least you made some attempt to correct the ridiculous inaccuracy of your first post, though.  Bravo, you are an example for us all.

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Old Mike
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« Reply #4 on: 04 March 2005, 12:12:00 pm »

The Empire was built in a spirit of altruism. Unfortunately that is incomprehensible to the modern consumer.
#################
Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go, bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait, in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain,
To seek another's profit
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine,
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
(The end for others sought)
Watch sloth and heathen folly
Bring all your hope to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No iron rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go, make them with your living
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden,
And reap his old reward--
The blame of those ye better
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought ye us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"


Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloak your weariness.
By all ye will or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent sullen peoples
Shall weigh your God and you.

Take up the White Man's burden!
Have done with childish days--
The lightly-proffered laurel,
The easy ungrudged praise:
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years,
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers.

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Joseph27
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« Reply #5 on: 04 March 2005, 15:31:00 pm »

I strongly believe that both England and America have histories to be both proud and ashamed of at the same time.  The English have always tried to portray themselves as the good guys of the past few centuries fighting those evil bastards in France and Germany whilst massacring and stealing from countless people of varying skin shades in the process.  

Of course they were sometimes the good guys - most especially WWII when their strength and very survival rested surely on the shoulders of one great man who would nevertheless be written off as a mad man today.  The British Empire conquered much of known world for King and country – corporations carried forward the flag and the empire expanded.  As far as Colonial Powers go – I guess the English were better than others (especially the Dutch) and would definitely have been better than Nazi Germany however they weren’t about niceness – they explored conquered and extracted wealth for their own benefits – other countries also did this but the British did often give something back to a very small percentage of that countries elite.  Realistically though the British Empire ruled with an iron fist and when resolve was needed, a hammer was used.  Revisionist historians will tell of England’s evil ways and their treatment of indigenous peoples but it was the way the world worked then – possibly still is but we have different names now for these old practices.

In short (too late) I am proud as an Australian descendant of British Grandparents for the history I share with them – sure it was colorful and violent and that is not something to be proud of but without their resourcefulness, their tenacity and their desire to conquer, my beautiful country would be a mix match of rocks vandalized over the ages by an indigenous people who had some very bizarre antiquated violent and entirely misogynist practices (much like their occupiers   ).  Again revisionists like to amplify the splendor of the cultures conquered but don’t give much credit to those who conquer – at the end of day we are all people and so shared the same flaws.  Great the Aboriginal people shared a great understanding of their own spirituality but gang rapes weren’t uncommon – violence wasn’t uncommon – we need to look at the entire package and not just the nice wrapping presented to us.  We are always sold nirvana but we live in purgatory.

Lets face one fact – if it wasn’t the English who conquered and if wasn’t the American’s who are now doing what the English once did – another power would fill the vacuum – forget altruism – it doesn’t exist on a world scale – forget world order theory it also doesn’t exists.  The only certainty in this world is that those with power will try to maintain their hold on it whilst those without power and privilege will do everything to get it.  Many writers will sing the praises of various Russians or Chinese revolutionaries and brush over the millions killed by their respective regimes – and many will attack the US as I often do for their blatant power grabbing and illegal use of force but that doesn’t mean for a second that I am against the way of life I was born into and work everyday to maintain. I would never espouse that we go into the hills to fight evil American’s; most especially given the absolute lunacy of people like Osama Bin Laden.  At the end of the day I like to go home and have a glass of red wine or perhaps a premium scotch and soda – I also enjoy a tender rack of baby pork ribs – sensational.  

So in terms of being proud of history – I believe you can say that you are proud of the achievements of your country and what your ancestors achieved – even though you recognize the horrors committed by them and indeed by your very own generation.

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"truth is a group of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms; a sum of human relation which is poetically and rhetorically intensified, metamorphosed and adored so that after a long time it is then codified in the binding canon."
Azania
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« Reply #6 on: 04 March 2005, 15:40:00 pm »

What always worries me about this kind of post is how quickly:

a) it becomes evident that the person has so little knowledge of the world and its history at large.

b) How people cherry pick at history and adjust it to suit their ends.

If one were to sit and talk with people of this ilk, you would swear that the only 2 places that ever colonised any part of the world were Europe and the US.

Some facts:

As a previous post so rightly pointed out, the US never colonised any country to speak of. They are one of the newest nations on Earth apart from those that change hands on a weekly basis. They are the original melting pot and the colony of all colonies.

The Europeans have in many shapes and forms been colonising the world for millenia, ever since the time of the ancient Greeks and Romans.

But this is the point which these idiots tend to forget. If you understand the word colonise to mean establish, settle ,pioneer etc. then you will know something else

SO HAS EVERYONE ELSE !!

I am from Zimbabwe. Ask any twit who needs a bandwagon to stand on about my country and they will jump headlong on to the "British are evil colonialists" variety.

They will forget that before the British there were a tribe calling itself the Mashona living there. An offshoot of the Zulu tribe called the Matabele took over, conquered , call it what you will.

Further south, the Zulu nation are always attributed , falsely , as being this huge nation of South African tribesmen who lived there for thousands of years.

Rubbish! Originally they were a small nation, outnumbered greatly by others until Shaka Zulu decided to try this conquering lark and employed the "join us as Zulus or die" method.

Between the Zulus, Xhosa (Nelson Mandela's roots) Sotho, Tswana , Venda and dozens of other tribes , and the European settlers later in the day, the original inhabitants of South Africa have long since been wiped out. The Hottentots are extinct, people!!

The Moriori people of New Zealand are no more. Tame Horomana Rehe Solomon, known as Tommy Solomon, the last full blooded Moriori, died in 1933.

The Maori people had more to do with that than anyone else.

The Asian races have been colonising conquering slaughtering each other for 1000's of years before the first white man came any where near the place.

Slavery in Africa was rooted in a trade of Black people selling Black people to other Black people. And to Arab people. And to the Phoenicians. And to anyone interested in making a purchase.

Every nation on Earth has taken slaves in their past.

Every nation on Earth has conquered and overrrun their neighbours. Thats because we are all humans.

We humans have been out there conquering, torturing, raping,pillaging, plundering , sacking and generally causing freaking havoc since long before we learned to walk erect or discovered the secret of fire. We have done it in the name of religion, commerce, greed, self preservation and every other excuse we could come up with.

For anyone out there who is looking for a cause or a bandwagon to climb aboard, here's a doozy.

STOP KILLING EACH OTHER.

The sooner we realise that we are a long long long way from civilisation as we would like it to be, the sooner we will come to our senses.

The sooner we stop pointing fingers at this race or this country or this belief or that idealogy, the sooner we are on the road to true freedom.

I for one am a long way off. I have pettiness and self centredness and bigotry and bias oozing out of every pore, yet the fact that I know this and try (generally unsucceffully) to change it puts me way ahead of the race.

People like the ones who don't know the truth of the history that brought us to this point are truly blind.

Get Real!


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Azania
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« Reply #7 on: 04 March 2005, 15:46:00 pm »

Joseph 27 - I posted just before you, and so do not include you in the taget of my vitriol, no that I agre with everything you say, either, as you too tend to target the Western powers more than the global problem

However, I remember in arecent post you said you had recently converted to Islam. And yet in your post I read the following -

"At the end of the day I like to go home and have a glass of red wine or perhaps a premium scotch and soda – I also enjoy a tender rack of baby pork ribs "

Shame on you, Joseph. Shame!!

What would the new addition to the J27 household say.

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T2K
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« Reply #8 on: 04 March 2005, 16:03:00 pm »

Good post Azania.

The West is derided not for being the only culture to conquer and "colonialize" - but rather for being the best at it.  If African nations were the predominant powers in the world, it would be the other way around.

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Joseph27
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« Reply #9 on: 04 March 2005, 16:34:00 pm »

MMM   what can i say - guess very little rubbed off.  Actually I am about as Islamic as my brother in law is Catholic - we both converted for weddings.   As for the newest member of my family - I hope to one day be able to sit down at a table and share a glass of wine - a rack of ribs and discuss the absurdity of religious doctrine with her  

I liked your post by the way - especially the part when you mention Africa.  All too often we only learn of the evil ways of the white man when the problems discussed are generally more broad.  In terms of my attacks on American foreign policy - they are more specific because I genuinely believe that there are different ways of engaging the enemy and the US - most especially under Bush - has taken the US down a very different path.

As for my previous post - I sent it specifically to my sister in law who works alot with aboriginal people in Aus and much of what I said was aimed at stiring a debate.  All in the name of learning and fun.

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"truth is a group of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms; a sum of human relation which is poetically and rhetorically intensified, metamorphosed and adored so that after a long time it is then codified in the binding canon."
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« Reply #10 on: 08 March 2005, 13:07:00 pm »

Singapore kept more of its British institutions and respect for the law than any other southeast Asian country.

In your clean, safe streets, wealthy people, Victorian archtitecture, and cradle to the grave subsidized housing, pension, etc., I see all the 'terrible' legacy the British left you.

--Funny how so many  of the world's wealthiest countries, America included, are former British colonies    

[This message has been edited by cactus (edited 08-03-2005).]

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