Choosing a religion in the modern world.

[Aunt Bessie's Yorksh Puds]

Lately me & my husband have been talking about what we will teach our kids if and when we have any.

My Q to you is - what do you teach your kid about religion in today's modern world?

I was brought up a strict Catholic and my husband isn't v. religious at all. Having travelled the world and been friends, experienced many cultures I now believe that we are all looking at the same thing and there's really no need to stick a label on it. As we see in the world today, being part of x or y faith is only contributing to the world's problems. That's not the only reason. If you look at BBC website today there is another case of Priest child abuse - why would I want to potentially expose a child to that and I don't really believe in their institution anyway.

So what to do - how can you bring up a child in todays world - still believing in God, but without the constraints that certain religions bring, whilst also teaching a child the general acceptable/ unacceptable behaviour to be a good and charitable person.

[PhilM]

I was also raised as a Catholic; but two years of Jesuit schooling caused me to question all Religions. With all three of my daughters I taught them moral and social values, and individual faith. By individual faith I mean belief in God on a personal level whereby you do not feel the need for an intermediator such as a priest.

By no means did I try to stop the girls from investigating different religions for themselves, in fact I attended various churches, temples, etc with them when they requested me to. I did though give them books such as Bamber Gascoignes “The Christians” to read to give them an understanding of what mankind is capable of in the name of religion. I also encouraged them when there were world problems to look into the underlying causes for themselves.

Sadly both as children and now as adults my daughters realised all too often people were, and still are killed in the name of religion no matter the true underlying cause of the conflict.

As their Dad I am very proud of the way my daughters have grown up, adopted and practiced good moral and social values. Each of them is secure in their belief of, and relationship with God; however each of them ultimately made an adult choice not to become involved in any religion. Neither they nor I decry people who choose to be part of any World Religion; we simply have our own reasons for not wishing to be a part of one.

[cactus]

Satanism:
Reflects typical behaviour and everyday, opportunistic human nature. Doesn't deny the spiritual side of sexuality, has a code of ethics that conforms with ruthless capitalism at its best, makes allowances for revenge...

...ok, ok, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate
(literally, in this case)  

[Joseph27]

Good description Cactus - and all this time I thought I was a non comformist Catholic and in reality I was a satanist  

My wife and I will bring our Children up in a way not to dissimilar to Phils phillosophy

Teaching Children to think and be emotionally intelligent is the most important job. Let them know how to reason and then introduce God as preached by several different religions.  

[davidould]

Well, ('cos it's my job) can I suggest a fresh look at Jesus Christ?

We run a regular course for people who want to find out more.

Check out our website
www.stgeorges.org.sg

David
St George's Church, Tanglin

[Protagonist]

Having been brought up by quite deeply religious parents, it didn't take me long to realise that organised religion was, on the whole, a bad thing. Seeing brainwashed, otherwise normal, people singing absurd praises to a bearded man in the clouds week on week seems the most ridiculous thing about it.

Having grown up (sort of) and having recently become a parent, I was wondering the same thing as the original poster.

Without getting into an argument about how a culture cannot function in society without some form of religion, I will concede that religion, for now, is here to stay.

There are good points to be drawn from religion, namely the culture of charitableness and compassion etc, that it instills in it's followers. However, even this only goes so far when two differing beliefs confront each other.

From Northern Ireland to the Middle East, every single war or conflict you can name is down to religion (or more recently, oil, which practically is a religion in the US)

However, I desist. The best thing you can teach your children is, as PhilM says, moral and social values, which go far beyond religion as we know it. Children are the future, as they say, so bring them up by furnishing them with as much objective and non-partisan information as you can. Not everything can be divided into right and wrong, black and white – it is down to the individual to deconstruct the situation and come up with their own opinion based on facts and cognitive thinking.

Catholics, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Scientologists – none is better than the other.

[PhilM]

David, It is a good thing you have posted your site as people should look, listen, and study to make up their own minds about their personal faith, and indeed if they need a religion to practice that faith with. Your post short though it is raises two questions in my mind: -

Firstly you suggest people “Take a fresh look at Jesus Christ” Why not ask them to take a fresh look at God? My main personal reserve with the organised religions of the world is they spend more time studying the teachings of the prophets (men) and glorifying them, than they do on infinite basic belief in God. In many Religions there is also far more deference given to the leaders of the religion than God. Finally I have a problem with the way organised religions amass wealth and property for themselves rather than distributing it to the needy.

Secondly in looking through your site I came across “Prayer Warriors for Cambodia” Having read through them, the prayers seem to have a lot more to do with a desire to convert every Cambodian to Christianity than anything else. Cambodians historically practice Theravada Buddhism with overtones of Animism and Brahman practices. The French as Colonials did a lot to try to stamp out the peoples faith, and it was abolished under Pol Pot. Since the fall of Pol Pot many of the people have returned to practicing their historical faith although it has not been easy for them.

It is all too easy to pick sentences in isolation, yet there are many in your suggested prayers that concern me. It seems all who have not turned to your Church are to be considered as Unbelievers and Unsaved, Living in darkness, etc, in other words typically you are claiming yours is the only true Religion and the people’s indigenous faith is wrong. You seek the conversion of every Cambodian to your faith something which is more likely to cause disunity than the unity you pray for. I am sure your intentions for the welfare of Cambodians are good, plus they certainly need support in many ways; however it is disingenuous to link that support to faith conversion.

You suggested we should “Take a fresh look at Jesus Christ”, well I am going to suggest to you to “Take a fresh look at History” Missionaries whilst often well meaning invariably arrived with, or were the precursors of Colonialisation. Whilst many missionaries have helped people invariably they have done so intending to convert them rather than out of humanitarian or altruistic beliefs. Some such as the Jesuits have helped to systematically murder the leaders of indigenous faiths whilst raping the colonised country of wealth and resources all in the name of their religion.

I get concerned every time I see a Religion portraying itself as the only true Religion as yours appears to. Today as in history, this claim is used by Political leaders and Company Magnates to encourage one people to fight with another. Look at the current wars and trouble spots in the world and tell me where Religion does not play an active role. We do not need “Prayer Warriors” we need “Prayer Pacifists” who teach there are many routes to God, not just one, and that we are each entitled to our personal faith.

[antoine]

davidould welcome...
You are having your fire baptism...

Some clarifications I think are necessary

1. Religions in themselves as they currently exist, and existed do not cause or start wars, anywhere.

It is Man's choice to interpret his, or a  belief system in a way to be the scourge and pest to his fellowman. You will usually find that such a Man does not even follow his belief system completely...only what he likes, or is comfortable with.

So Men start/fight wars, not religions...it is like saying guns kill people...remove the guns...people still die.

Secondly, In my life and experience, I have never seen any ethics and values, which never came from some belief system/religions.
I doubt you will either...and I would love to see evidence of some tenet, not already in existence, or not encapsulated in a current beliefs system's tenets.

So try as you may, you will/may still be teaching your child a value/ethic which emanated from a religion/belief system.

Even if you made your own up(or thought you did), it would simply be a mix of what we already have or had, and is forgotten, in some places, but recorded, and practiced somewhere.

So you choose more of this and less of that, depending on your particular biases, awareness, and wisdom...which  is the method being largely advocated.

Actually that is the easy, shortsighted way.
A preferred way is to see what the real current religions say first (not the ignorance we parade as knowledge)...then choose to be a devotee of one completely...    .
Better still, whatever you choose be it completely...and live and die in it.

That however takes work...
We do not even have time to look after ourselves much more to develop new belief systems, (even after this initiating post)that is assuming that we could...and we cannot, because we ourselves, have not/never given our present beliefs much thought...
       

In the beginning...there was just living...no religion.
And all belief systems came from the first Man anyway, and so all we have are splinters from the block...perhaps we should put the splinters of the religions we have now, together and see what the wood looks like.        

The term religion has only become necessary, because the wisdom         of Man, separated beliefs which determined action, from living, in a lifestyle, to suit his purposes. and so that he may get on with life, without the the bother, and "moral handicap"

And religion has become that part of our existence which has been subtracted from life to allow Man to act rapaciously and pillage each other, in business as well as in his general relationships.

And so religion has been relegated to houses, buildings, and special times and days, like birth, death, and illness...and Sundays, Fridays, Saturdays, etc.

It has been relegated there to keep it out of the sight and conscience of the same  Man/Men and his like progeny who separated it, and now keeps it separate, in the glorified and meaningless term "Church and State".

Man also does not want anyone else to practice it/them because it reminds him of what he is not doing...

I do however support teaching one's children to think, but one has to add, be critical, continuously seek, and choose to relearn and unlearn.

Most of all, what we call knowledge today, is foolishness tomorrow...no explanation or proof, is final. - not even this immediately preceding statement-        

Finally, ensure that they do better than you have...in the thinking department...for example if you have taken ten steps in your life, equip them to commence with an eleventh step...ie where you stopped, having benefitted from your experience, rather than repeating it.

Please do not teach them to follow in our footsteps, (lest they really do). ha.

Charge them to beat a new path...they only return to our path for general principles or re-orientation or rest...but then they have to start out again.

On a late note regarding many paths to God...

Some people think, it is not so easy to follow that there are indeed many routes, and it is very unexplainable, if one should choose to examine it, and think it through.

It may be easier to think and follow this however; that where one starts to look for a God is many or how he becomes aware of his need is many(as many as there are individuals at least).

Having started out from the numerous points (as many as there are seeking individuals) the route however is one, and the destination is one.

This I think is easier to follow, and can stand up to test, and scrutiny whether one has low knowledge, no knowledge, or high knowledge.

As it is we may all be on the wrong route.

Peace

[This message has been edited by antoine (edited 28-11-2002).]

[Fresh Mint]

Pompous gibberish.

[Protagonist]

Religious Imperialism has been rife since it's invention, but this is often used as a 'sacreligeous front' for empire building and the pursuit of power and wealth.

From Cortez to Cambodia to the British Empire to the Nazi gold hidden by the vatican, religions have labelled entire races as expendable in the race to spread the word.

Churches bedecked in gold ornaments preach to the destitute about their sins whilst handing round the offering plate.

Convert or be killed - entire cultures have been destroyed in the name of christianity, seen as savages who worship blasphemous idols.

Spain did it in South America, Britain did it in Africa & India...there are countless instances.

[Maximus]

I agree with Antoine.

Pick a religion (doesn't matter what) and stick with it. Religion is supposed to be an easier way to find the meaning of life, universe and everything. You can try to find it yourself, but without a guide, it's very easy to get lost along the way.

Having said that, you still need another lifetime journey to find the essence among the mythology and politics that clouded all religions in the world.

All you need is an open mind (and probably a good mentor).

It's fanatics and the politicians that disgrace all religions. Just make sure your kid doesn't become one.

[cactus]

AN ALTERNATIVE, REALISTIC PERSPECTIVE:

Assume an evil entity is in charge of the universe, all humans, even Satanists are just cattle for the truly ugly entities who harvest human souls the way we harvest cattle. During life, they feed off the negativity they induce and influence.

Human history is a just a tragedy orchestrated by their malign influence, and this includes all religions.

Now imagine that you as a mere human are trapped in this.
THERE IS NO ESCAPE. THE GOOD AND BAD YOU DO COUNTS FOR NOTHING.
AND NONE ARE EXEMPTED.

>>>>>> Now go out, enjoy life to the fullest while respecting others, and don't let all this bother you.

IS THIS THE BEGINNING OF TRUE SPIRITUALITY?

[This message has been edited by cactus (edited 29-11-2002).]

[expat1]

PhilM, So far I have been bringing my children up along the lines you outline - teach them values, morals, to respect others, kindness, politeness, etc.  I differ in that I did not presuppose there is a God and that they need to have a relationship with any God, especially the Judeo Christian God I assume you have in mind.

Second, you question David? about why pray to Jesus to get to God, why the need for an intermediary.  Well, being Jesuit educated you know that Jesus came to save all non-jews, that you go through him to get to the father.  At least that is the way Chistians interpret his words.

My interpretation is that you get to the father by living like Jesus, not by praying to Jesus.  I assume you agree and were trying to draw him out.

Antoine, yes, the harder route is to pick a religion and stick with it.  Extremely hard to stick with something that doesn't always make sense.  That is why I choose the "easier" route.  Now why would I want to adhere to a religion with a bunch of man-made rules that I don't agree with... other than for the reason that than I would be with you and not against you so perhaps less likely you would ram me with your car bomb    Can't you see you and GB are cut from the same cloth.

 

[antoine]

This response is un-informed.

"Antoine, yes, the harder route is to pick a religion and stick with it. Extremely hard to stick with something that doesn't always make sense. That is why I choose the "easier" route. Now why would I want to adhere to a religion with a bunch of man-made rules that I don't agree with... other than for the reason that than I would be with you and not against you so perhaps less likely you would ram me with your car bomb  Can't you see you and GB are cut from the same cloth."

Expat1
We have history, which is largely made up of your response to my posts, because you have not been able to allow difference of opinions, and positions.

Now you charge me with your problems of intolerance.
Something that my sojourn in this community is not evidence of, even remotely.

Now I will overlook your gutter-sniping, those remarks here, are many and less than Liliputian.  

I could ask"
1. Where is your proof that any religion was man-made.
2. What are the source of your rules.
3. I could ask for proof, from you, of your the source and origin your religion.

But statements in the instant post, says you would not be equal to the task, but more importantly, I am not the least bit interested.

Go in Peace.  

[Fresh Mint]

Another outburst of pompous verbosity from the illiterate one ...