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ExpatSingapore Message Board 25 May 2012, 8:25:37 am *
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Author Topic: 2,000 mark reached... but who won the war?  (Read 1765 times)
Patrick Mason
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« Reply #15 on: 29 October 2005, 11:04:00 am »

As long as the system survives beyond the united states pullout, so be it.

If in 10 years Iraq is run by loony muslim crackpots like Iran is, but they have been elected in democratic and free elections, so be it.

It's the system that needs to survive, not any puppet governments.

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« Reply #15 on: 29 October 2005, 11:04:00 am »



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Vulcanl
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« Reply #16 on: 29 October 2005, 12:43:00 pm »

Assuming that we all agree that we should continually strive for a free society where people are empowered to pursue what they feel are their best interests (provided no harm is done to others in the process) - the question then becomes: Is there a better model than capitalism?  My answer is a resounding NO.  I personally do not agree with some of the distortions that result in this system, and improvements can be made.  But frankly I do not think that there is something better to take its place.  America (as any other powerful nation past, present and future)  indeed has its own interests to protect and we use our foreign policy along with other assets to further our goals.  Ask yourself this honestly - you are obviously thoughtful and intelligent people - Has there been in the course of recorded human history a more benevolent empire than the USA?
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kleverkljogs
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« Reply #17 on: 29 October 2005, 16:44:00 pm »

You think you have an empire now?

Empire: "..a number of territories or nations ruled by a single supreme authority. "

You claim that the US is the Supreme Authority?

But in a good way of course.....

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EastCoastSurfer

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« Reply #18 on: 30 October 2005, 9:17:00 am »

on a global basis those major powers not involved have won the war - specially CHINA. politically, militarily and economically they have been nicely avoiding any involvement into this "no win" mission impossible. Over the next few years we shall see who the real loosers gonna be...
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Patrick Mason
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« Reply #19 on: 30 October 2005, 10:05:00 am »

Chian will implode in another 50 years.  It'll become a series of squabbling states.

The campain to squash ethnic identity in China will fail the same as it did in the USSR.

China, like America, is just a blip on the radar of History.  It will return to the middle-kingdom mentality, inward looking and lacking inovation which is why they wound up behind the west in the first place.

Europe and the Middle East will continue to dominate the world for many years to come, and you see Latin American and most of the EX-USSR gravitate towards Europe and / or the states culturally.

I'd say in 100 years you way well see some form of EU-USA-AUS union.  That'd be sweet.

China is overated.  India is the one to watch.

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EastCoastSurfer

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« Reply #20 on: 30 October 2005, 10:18:00 am »

Patrick - i am not sure with your idea on China. But then again, one need different visions in order to believe.

To get back to the OP question, im my humble opinion, none of the key players involved in the Iraq war will be able to claim a victory - neither militarily, economically nor politically. Now or not in the next decade or so.

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Vulcanl
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« Reply #21 on: 30 October 2005, 11:01:00 am »

Great points all - current US dominance is not guaranteed and the actions of the  present administration have severely undermined USA's reputation in the World.  The situation in Iraq is a no-win for America as stated above
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« Reply #22 on: 30 October 2005, 18:46:00 pm »

I agree with Patrick, China is overated in the sense that although it is trying to acquire 'hard-power' any attempt to use it will be met with swift action from several of the world powers including Russia, India, Japan and the United States - all of which have had (or continue to have) beefs with Beijing.

Culturally the chinese (Han Chinese) mentality will curb any imperialist visions. Plus i don't think china can, in the long term, remain a nation without severe social disorder and extreme measures being taken by the communist party.

Eventually you'll probably see China wind up like Indonesia, a series of increasingly independant provinces governed by a weaker and weaker central government.

Japan on the other hand, will begin to flex it's muscles more often, and has the technology to keep china at bay.

Korea, once re-unified will likely drift towards a closer relationship with Japan as a balancing act to counter China.

China will find it's self in the current situation that America is in; powerful, but with many, many peoples and nations deliberatley blocking thier actions simply because they are powerful.

As for Iraq, the real winners will be the people if there is a peaceful break-up of Iraq into regions based on ethnic lines - something that has wrecked africa and continues to plauge the middle east.

The Kurds deserve self government, and once they get it, this will have a dominoe effect into turkey, which will then reveal it's true colours and and be once and for all barred for joining the EU.

I think the best thing is for peaceful disengagement between the different ethnic groups in iraq, but that will be seen as a 'loss' to america.

It was a good idea, but America should have waited for Europe to come on board - i remember listening to the UN on radio, hearing the speechs and thinking "Right, the europeans are IN - just give them 3 more months for Iraq to fail to comply with the weapons program and you've got them"

But no, Bushy wouldn't wait.  As as a result to many lives have been lost.

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hp sauce
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« Reply #23 on: 06 November 2005, 21:14:00 pm »

Who won the war ? ... why I thought that was obvious .. Halliburton did.
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