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ExpatSingapore Message Board 25 May 2012, 8:26:01 am *
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Author Topic: Ageing population  (Read 821 times)
Joseph27
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« on: 09 January 2004, 10:07:00 am »

There is a great deal written now about the worlds ageing population and given the ramifications of this, especially to first world economies, what exactly can be done to alleviate the massive strain on paying back what they have given?

The aging population will cause medicare and social security to balloon to unsustainable levels - but what alternatives are there to current practices?  There was an episode of Star Trek where a world practiced the ritual suicide of a person upon reaching the age of 60 (don’t worry PhilM you're still a long way off   ).  Though an extreme example, we in the West, are so terrified by death that we keep machines supporting people whose bodies should have long since withered away and then complain about the rising cost of providing for the sick.

What can be done in both the short and long term to tackle the issues of an ageing population?

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« on: 09 January 2004, 10:07:00 am »



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SA Guy
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« Reply #1 on: 09 January 2004, 10:29:00 am »

I do think that the principle of sustaining life regardless of the conditions is fairly shortsighted and even infringes on peoples rights.

A friend in the UK working as a Carer was begged by a woman in her nineties to please let her die. Her family did not visit, she had no bowel control and constantly had people cleaning her and she was in constant pain.

The system forces those caring for people in these conditions to keep them alive and prevent them from ending their own suffering. Is this not an infringement on their rights and worse than that just plain cruelty.

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Imagine
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« Reply #2 on: 09 January 2004, 11:58:00 am »

The problem will solve itself in due time.
In an ageing population the number of old people will go down.
In the end there will be only one person left.

Or maybe by that time science has found the cure for ageing and nobody grows old anymore, or nobody dies anymore.

By that time, due to overpopulation, 350 year old astronauts will lead 500 year old explorers to Mars to set up a new human colony.

Story continues....

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Böser Onkel
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« Reply #3 on: 09 January 2004, 21:32:00 pm »

To all that are laughing about this topic...

Look at germany and check out their pension system...

It's not safe anymore because of the growing number of pensioners.

The system there has a major weak point but maybe tomorrow it's your system as well...

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Joseph27
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« Reply #4 on: 10 January 2004, 9:33:00 am »

Böser Onkel - I agree some may laugh such issues off but they what happens in the next few years when baby boomers retire - what happens in Japan when a huge segment of the population becomes dependant on social welfare system.  These are major concerns for all governments but are there any answers that are both palatable and practical?  
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"truth is a group of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms; a sum of human relation which is poetically and rhetorically intensified, metamorphosed and adored so that after a long time it is then codified in the binding canon."
Imagine
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« Reply #5 on: 10 January 2004, 12:45:00 pm »

It's a little bit of a nasty remark, but I think we have to wait for Germany to get into serious financial trouble.

History has learned us that whenever Germany has economical problems, they start a World War.  

Now, that will definitely reduce the ageing population as well as wipe out any social welfare system.

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GrassIsGreener
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« Reply #6 on: 11 January 2004, 8:52:00 am »

in pure economic terms, the answer is immigration.

Let in hard working young immigrants who will provide a  long stream of tax payments to fund the increasing demands of the elder generation.

If no immigration, watch for a spectacular upheaval. Germany is already starting to consider a backdoor approach to this by discussing the lowering of the voting age. That way the butchering of the pension system can be done through democratic channels.

However, acceptance of immigrants in Europe is rather terrible. I imagine something akin to the US about 100 years ago.

Over the past 20 years, I have lived in Sing, Spain, Mexico, US, Taiwan, and Italy. No country has dealt well with immigration. Anecdotally, each country has had its share of evils, embarassments, and nastiness. However, I have to say that the American way of dealing with things--in the open, with lots of whining & publicity, and talk shows helps ease the adjustment not relative to utopian ideal but both to management seen in other countries and wrt US history. But the largest cost is that assimilation starts the process of breaks ties with the past (good and bad thing). So that after a generation or two, the immigrant is American rather than say wholly but living in the US.

ANd Frankly based on one sees in the UK and France, it seems to work better.

The Grass Truly is Greener on the Otherside!!

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Dr Opinion
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« Reply #7 on: 14 January 2004, 18:47:00 pm »

> "...Let in hard working young immigrants who will provide a long stream of tax payments to fund the increasing demands of the elder generation..."

That's what happened in Ancient Rome.

See where it got them...  

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Böser Onkel
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« Reply #8 on: 14 January 2004, 19:57:00 pm »

Dear Imagine,

I am a german and still I have to agree to your theory. Let's see what will happen when the people realize how bad the situation is.

Only one example:
82 mio population, 38 mio working and paying for health insurance and pension system. That means 44 mio don't contribute.

And the systems are based on pay as you go or sharing of costs and/or expenses. It's only a matter of time that trouble will arise.

Onkel

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Joseph27
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« Reply #9 on: 14 January 2004, 20:32:00 pm »

Where do we go from here?  Böser Onkel
gives some very telling figures - where do we make up the numbers ?  How do we reconcile dimished workforce with larger number of dependants and still attempt to sustain our current standard of living?

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"truth is a group of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms; a sum of human relation which is poetically and rhetorically intensified, metamorphosed and adored so that after a long time it is then codified in the binding canon."
Old Mike
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« Reply #10 on: 14 January 2004, 21:37:00 pm »

What a lot of nonsense.
If people live longer, they can be productive longer.
Simply raise the pension age to 70 or 75.
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Dr Opinion
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« Reply #11 on: 14 January 2004, 21:42:00 pm »

It's perfectly obvious what will happen. It's already happening. The governments simply renege on their promises, and fail to deliver pensions and benefits per the social contract. As long as benefits are reduced gradually, each year there are only a fraction of total potential beneficiaries complaining, and they are complaining about only a fraction of the total loss of benefits. The electorate is lazy. They will do nothing.  
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GrassIsGreener
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« Reply #12 on: 15 January 2004, 6:03:00 am »

Dr. O, Imperial Rome's rise to power was essentially based on a model similar to open immigration. High degree of labor mobility and goods (relative to the times). The rise of the US has been based on wave after wave of people escaping persecution or economic misery or seeking opportunity to make a better life--literally from day one.

All the crap about over-extending the social welfare system is just that--pure hogwash based on highly politicized anecdotal data. In fact, if the US chucked the incumbent citizenry (say three or more generations) and just let in wave of immigrants, especially of the right age, the US would be pertually in an early phases of growth.

I am now in Europe. 100% of the dynamism is with the immigrants. The entrenched are just that. Same goes for the East Coast of the US. Hell, all the excitement in NYC comes from all its "immigrants" from other states trying to make it big.

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Dr Opinion
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« Reply #13 on: 15 January 2004, 10:39:00 am »

Good point. The problem is that after hundreds of years, the entrenched become more so. They consolidate their power, build their walls, and degenerate. The very consititution that guaranteed equality is now being dismantled by those in power... they don't want your company.  

There is serious corruption in the American WASP elite. You see it in Enron. You see it in the banking cartel. You see it in Big Oil.

A fish, as they say, rots from the head.  

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Manc Man
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« Reply #14 on: 15 January 2004, 12:02:00 pm »

<<100% of the dynamism is with the immigrants>>

So where's Branson from then?

mm

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