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Author Topic: Why?  (Read 854 times)
rubicond
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« on: 03 April 2006, 15:58:00 pm »

We live in a world where the richest 10% of the population has 50% of the wealth, and the poorest 50% of the population has 10% of the wealth. It has been like this for (at least) the last 50 years (but probably more likely for the last 500 years or more), although things have been getting worse for the last 20 or so.

Why? How can things can improve?

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« on: 03 April 2006, 15:58:00 pm »



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swordfish
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« Reply #1 on: 03 April 2006, 16:44:00 pm »

I like having more money than God, makes it easier to travel.

If the world's equity was ever close to equilibrium there would be no incentive to work.  

The distribution of wealth is a long standing problem that will not go away anytime soon.

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Potemkin Cruise

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« Reply #2 on: 03 April 2006, 18:17:00 pm »

Good read on this very topic:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0745629954/sr=8-1/qid=1144058617/ref=sr_1_1/104-2797381-9953500?%5Fencoding=UTF8

At the heart of this issue is a thorny problem of positive versus negative duties across cultures -- I might have a duty not to harm you and we can both agree on that, but why ought I sacrifice my own interests to *help* you?  You say I should, I say I shouldn't -- and some might argue that to settle this issue one way or another will necessarily require some form of just cultural imperialism.

Pogge's response: focus on institutions instead of direct interactions between individuals.  Thus, if we have put in place an unfair global trade system, and a system of finance where any tom dick or harry with big enough guns can borrow in the name of a state (bankrupting it) and sell its natural resources to the highest bidder (again to the detriment of its people), then you can no longer say that you have "done no harm" if you are the benificiary of that system.  People, in other words, are getting screwed, you are getting rich, and it doesn't matter how "corrupt" third-world leaders are, since the system you benefit from keeps them where they are.

The suggested solution is an incremental one of institutional reform (accountability at the World Bank, elected second-assembly to the UN, and a refusal to lend to or buy resources from corrupt leaders).  

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Publius
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« Reply #3 on: 04 April 2006, 1:39:00 am »

Where is the other 40%?
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Old Mike
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« Reply #4 on: 04 April 2006, 10:43:00 am »

The answer can be found by considering monkeys.
I found this some time ago and think that there is a lot of truth in it:


"One death is a tragedy. One million deaths is a statistic."

-Chuck Norris

What do monkeys have to do with war, oppression, crime, racism and even e-mail spam?

You'll see that all of the random ass-headed cruelty of the world will suddenly make perfect sense once we go...

Twelve Steps to Total Enlightenment

1. What do monkeys have to do with it?

Picture a monkey. A monkey dressed like a little pirate, if you wish. We'll call him Slappy.

Imagine you have Slappy as a pet. Imagine a personality for him. Maybe you and he have little pirate monkey adventures and maybe even join up to fight crime. You'd be sad if Slappy died, wouldn't you?
Now, imagine you get five more monkeys. Tito, Bubbles, Fluffy, Marcel and ****Tosser. Imagine personalities for each of them. Maybe one is aggressive, one is affectionate, one is distant and quiet. And so on. They're all your personal monkey friends.

Now imagine a hundred monkeys. Then a thousand.
How long until you can't tell them apart? Or remember their names? At what point, in your mind, do your beloved pets become just a faceless sea of monkey? If you get enough monkeys, you'll eventually have enough that you no longer even care if one of them dies.
Now, each of these monkeys is every bit the monkey that Slappy was. It's just that you don't give a rat's ass any more.

2. So this whole thing is your crusade against monkey overpopulation? I'll have my monkey castrated this very day!

Uh, no. Stay with me here.

You see, monkey experts performed a monkey study a while back and discovered that the size of the monkey's monkey brain determined the size of the monkey groups the monkeys formed. The bigger the brain, the bigger the little societies they built.
They cut up so many monkey brains, in fact, that they found they could actually take a brain they had never seen before and with a simple dissection, analysis and a quick taste, they could accurately predict what size tribes that species of creature formed.
Most monkeys operate in troupes of 50 or so. But somebody slipped them a slightly larger monkey brain -- but a monkey brain nonetheless -- and they estimated the ideal group or society for this particular animal was about 150.

That brain, of course, was human. Probably from a homeless man they snatched off the streets.

3. Oooooh. Okay...

I don't get it.

Let's try an example. Famous news talking guy Tim Russert tells a charming story in his book Big Russ and Me (the title referring to his on-and-off romance with actor Russell Crowe) about his father, who used to take half an hour to carefully box up any broken glass before taking it to the trash. Why? Because "the trash guy might cut his hands."
That this was such an odd thing to do illustrates my monkey point. None of us spend time worrying too much about the garbage man's welfare even though he performs a crucial role in not forcing us to live in a cave carved from a mountain of our own filth. We don't usually consider his safety or comfort at all and if we do, it's not in the same way we would worry over our best friend or wife or girlfriend or even our dog.

For instance, I live in a town heavy on little ordinances about what one can and cannot throw out in the trash (lawn clippings must be sealed in clear plastic, labelled, individually sterilized, named and stacked in alphabetical order according to species). Thus, if you listen to people around here speak on the subject of garbage you get nothing but snide comments and strategies to get around the petty rules (just dump the drain cleaner in a pickle jar! Those trash bastards will never know!)
There is almost no thought about what the drain acid or the Black Plague-infected rats in the garbage will do to the poor sanitation worker.
Why? Because the trash guy exists outside the Monkeysphere.

4. The Monkeysphere?

Yes, the Monkeysphere. That's the group of people who each of us, using our monkeyish brains, are able to conceptualize as people. If the monkey scientists are monkey right, it's physically impossible for this to be a number larger than 150. Most of us do not have room in our Monkeysphere for our friendly neighborhood Sanitation Worker. So, we don't think of him as a person. We think of him The Thing That Makes The Trash Go Away.

5. Hey! I like my garbage man!

Maybe, but one way or another we all have limits to our sphere of monkey concern. It's simply the way our brains are built. We each have a certain circle of people who we think of as people. Usually it's our own friends and family and neighbors and classmates and coworkers (or at least the ones in your department) and church or suicide cult.
This is literally the reason society doesn't work quite right. The people who exist outside that core group of a few dozen people are not people to us. They're sort of one-dimensional bit characters.
Remember the first time, as a kid, you met one of your school teachers outside the classroom? Maybe you saw old Miss Puckerson at Taco Bell picking up and eating a whole Taco Salad with her bare hands? Or you saw your principal walking out of a dildo shop?
Do you remember that surreal feeling you had when you saw these people actually had lives outside the classroom? I mean, they're teachers.
Or think of it this way: Which would upset you more, your brother dying, or a dozen kids across town getting killed because their bus collided with a truck hauling killer bees?
Which would be bigger news to your neighbors, those dozen mutilated bus children across town or 15,000 dead in an earthquake in Iran?
They're all humans and they are all equally dead. But the closer to our Monkeysphere they are, the more it means to us.

6. That's not my fault! I don't know those people!

Right. And they don't know you. That's why they don't mind stealing your stereo or vandalizing your house or cutting your wages or raising your taxes or bombing your office building or choking your computer with spam advertising diet and penis drugs they know don't work. You're outside their Monkeysphere. In their mind, you're just a vague shape with a pocket full of money for the taking.
That's the whole thing, right here. Life on Earth, in a nutshell. We are hard-wired to have a drastic double standard for the people inside and out of our Monkeysphere and those outside make up 99.999% of the world's population.
Have you ever gotten pissed off in traffic? Like, really pissed off? I think we all have. We've thrown finger gestures and wedged our heads out of the window and screamed "LEARN TO ****ING DRIVE, ****ER!!" We've all pulled the gun out of the glove compartment and let a few fly at the offending car. Not firing at their head or anything. Just, you know, at their tires.
Now imagine yourself standing in an elevator with three other people, two friends and a coworker. A friend goes to hit a button and accidentally punches the wrong one. Would you lean over, your mouth two inches from her ear, and scream "LEARN TO OPERATE THE ****ING ELEVATOR BUTTONS, ****CAMEL!!"
They'd think you'd gone insane. We all go a little insane, though, when we get in a group larger than the Monkeysphere. You know the feeling, that invincibility of being an anonymous head in a crowd, screaming curses at a football player you'd never dare say to his face.

7. I'm nice to strangers! Being anonymous doesn't have to lead to assholism!

Not right away, but eventually. It starts when the needs of ourselves or those within our Monkeysphere require screwing someone outside it (even if that need is just venting some tension and anger via exaggerated insults). This is why most of wouldn't dream of stealing money from the pocket of the old lady next door, but don't mind stealing cable or adding a shady exemption on our tax return or quietly celebrating when they forget to charge us for something at the restaurant.
You may have a list of rationalizations as long as a porn star's beefhorn for doing it, but the truth is that in our monkey brains the old woman next door is a human being while the cable company is a big, cold, faceless machine. That the company is, in reality, nothing but a group of people every bit as human as the old lady, or that some kind old ladies actually work there and would lose their jobs if enough cable were stolen, rarely occurs to us.
That's one of the ingenius things about the big-time religions, by the way. The old religious writers knew it was easier to put the screws to a stranger, so they taught us to get a personal idea of God in our heads who says, "no matter who you hurt, you're really hurting me. Also, I can crush you like a grape." You must admit that if they weren't writing words inspired by the Almighty himself, they at least understood the Monkeysphere.
You see? Once you understand the Monkeysphere principle you can see examples all around. You'll walk the streets in a daze, like Roddy Piper after putting on his X-ray sunglasses in They Live.

Click on a talk radio show. Listen to conservatives talk about "The Government" as if it were some huge, lurking dragon ready to eat you and your paycheck whole. Never mind that the government is made up of people and that all of that money they take goes into the pockets of human beings. Conservative talker Rush Limbaugh is known to tip 50% at restaurants, but flies into a broadcast tirade if even half that dollar amount is deducted from his paycheck by "the government," even though that money helps that very same single mom he had no problem tipping in her capacity as a waitress.
Click over to a liberal show now, listen to them describe "Multinational Corporations" in the same diabolical terms, an evil black force that belches smoke and poisons water and enslaves humanity. Isn't it strange how, say, a lone man who carves and sells children's toys in his basement is a sweetheart who just loves bringing joy at Christmas, but a big-time toy corporation (which brings toys to millions of kids at Christmas) is an inhuman soul-grinding greed machine? Strangely enough, if the kindly lone toy making guy made enough toys and hired enough people and expanded to enough shops, we'd eventually stop seeing it as a toy-making shop and start seeing it as the fiery Orc factories of Mordor.
And if you've just thought, "well, those talk show hosts are just a bunch of egomaniacal blowhards," you've just done the same thing, boiled real humans into a two-word cartoon character. It's the Monkeysphere!

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kleverkljogs
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« Reply #5 on: 04 April 2006, 12:25:00 pm »

"One death is a tragedy. One million deaths is a statistic."

That was originally Joseph Stalin, not Chuck Norris.

And in case you're wondering, no, Tom Hanks didn't liberate Europe either.

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rubicond
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« Reply #6 on: 04 April 2006, 17:19:00 pm »

Potemkine, what a lot of crap. But why should I be surprised? Aren't you the one who said:
quote:
The US are behaving exactly the same way as Nazi Germany or Napoleonic France, but they have the right to do so, because US people have the right to complain, unlike people in North Korea and Pakistan, and if you don't understand this exceptionally superior logic I think, and I swear to god that this is true, that I have never argued with anybody as stupid as you

[This message has been edited by rubicond (edited 04-04-2006).]

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Potemkin Cruise

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« Reply #7 on: 04 April 2006, 17:37:00 pm »

Lol.  I am beginning to develop a theory about you, Ruby.  You simply cannot conceive of an American who is not militaristic, ignorant or insensitive to the sufferings of others, as it threatens your sophmoric view of the world in which everything bad is epitomized by the US and everything good is represented by anybody who resists it.

You know full well my argument all along has been -- not that the US government has acted wrongly time and again -- but that the world is not as black and white as you claim that it is, that the US is not necessarily any worse than other hegemonic powers througout history, and if anything is more restrained due to its democratic institutions, and that the task before all of us is to build a better world governed by just global institutions to ensure that power is exercised in a fair way in the future, among other things.  (Which is why I am familiar with Pogge's work, by the way.)

My argument, furthermore, has been that building such a system will require the cooperation of fair-minded people within the US, and efforts by people like yourself to systematically demonize everything about the US in a manner calculated to be insulting just turns your potential allies off to anything you are saying.

As to the comment about you being "stupid" I retract it.  I am sure you are a very intelligent young man or woman.  But you must understand, when you call someone a "twat", argue that their nation is "worse than Nazi Germany" and back up your assertions with philosophical gems like "Napoleon brought democracy to Europe", you are going to get a reaction.

Now, do you have a substantive point about distributive justice (your original topic) or are you just going to continue to be nasty?

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rubicond
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« Reply #8 on: 04 April 2006, 20:06:00 pm »

 
quote:
You know full well my argument all along has been that the US is not necessarily any worse than other hegemonic powers througout history
One of my excellent points all along has been that the US should be better than other hegemonic powers throughout history because 1) people can inform themselves, and 2) people have the right to protest. Either or both of these two things were not present when the hegemonic powers throughout history committed their crimes. Of course you continue to ignore these points, because they make the us population worse than the population of any other hegemonic power that ever existed on planet earth.

Edit: and if you still don't get it, the us population is worse because not only THEY DON'T PROTEST (unless there are many us casualties. They couldn't care less if 100,000 innocent Iraqi died) in spite of the possibility of doing so, but THEY ACTUALLY SUPPORT THE CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY OF THEIR GOVERNMENT (proof is that the support for a president ALWAYS increases when he starts a war).

And I wrote this in capital letters, so you understand it better.

[This message has been edited by rubicond (edited 04-04-2006).]

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Potemkin Cruise

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« Reply #9 on: 04 April 2006, 20:47:00 pm »

>> Of course you continue to ignore these points, because they make the us population worse than the population of any other hegemonic power that ever existed on planet earth.

I have ignored your point only because this is the first time you have raised it cogently, or at least without some befuddling reference to Hitler.  My response is that (a) there are a great number of warmongers in the US, just like in any other fundamentally nationalistic polity, and that is a fair criticism, but (b) you are empirically wrong to assert the American people as a whole dont care:  
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/15/sprj.irq.protests.main/

and for a bit of history...
http://www.multied.com/vietnam/bigantiwar.html

As to WWI and WWII, I wouldn't expect there to be a large number of anti-war protests, no?   And as to the plethora of covert coups, etc., during the cold war that your favorite "America Sucks" site is fond of discussing, they were by definition, well, covert at the time.

And as to your attempt to equate public attention to body count, flag-draped coffins undoubtedly play a role, but American casualties in Iraq are what, only 3000 now? Yet about 55% of Americans polled now view the war as a mistake and hundreds of thousands regularly turn out for anti-war protests.  

Give people a little credit before you begin crapping on them, my friend, or at least explain exactly how the delicate sensitivities of your particular nation would have led to a different result if it actually had any military power with which to get into trouble.

But, again, none of this has anything to do with distributive justice.  You started the topic, tough guy...

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