War with IRAQ but not the US?

[pacifist]

I think a debate should start on whether we should form a global coalition to bomb the US. During the last 50 years the US has been the most blood thirsty country in the world, waging wars against dozens of small poor nations who could not defend themselves individually. A coalition of all these small nations might be able to kick the ass of the evil empire and start the construction of a more democratic world.

[The Answer]

And you believe you are a "pacifist" ?  

[This message has been edited by The Answer (edited 07-01-2003).]

[Dolemite]

Ha Ha Ha. Yeah, start that debate. I'm sure once the rest of the world hears of your brilliant idea, they'll be lining up to join your "coalition". Lining up to get their behinds handed to them.
Where on Earth are you from that you've developed such a hatred of the US? Canada?

[Protagonist]

We're with you Pacifist, the clan Protagonist will never bow to the evil that is the US!!!

Honestly Pacifist, I think you're wasting your time posting a topic like this. This board is full of blind, arrogant Americans who will just ridicule your Anti-US stance without reason. Consequently, it's hard to get a decent, factual discussion on here.

Happy New Year though..........and God bless you one and all.

[Dolemite]

Factual? Perhaps you could list the "dozens of small countries" the US has "invaded" in the last 50 years.

[Joseph27]

Just to answer the above question I thought I might just cut and paste this.  

The thing Americans will have to come to grips with is that their government has perpetrated a lot of evil acts and it has done so in their name.  

Ask people who have watched their countries be destroyed by corrupted dictators forced on them by US interests.  Perhaps because the country in question dared to raise the price of a particular food - which would have forced an increase in prices - the net effect.  The businessman lobbies his Congressman or Senator - who pushes it - they talk about it as an attack on American interest - the govt acts and that country has its leader overthrown - and a dictator - no i should say a friendly dictator comes in and everyone is happy again.  This is not that far fetched an example - the US has been very descructive in securing their short term interests.  

All around the world people are angry - most remain silent and brooding - but the ones the US trained to kill turned their guns back on their teachers.  

"be aware that this listing does not include many, many U.S. "interventions" where U.S. troops were not the primary force - such as the U.S. intervention in the Greek civil war during the 1950s - nor does it include the many, many U.S. nuclear threats that one might well consider a form of intervention - such as the U.S. nuclear threat during the '73 Arab-Israeli war - nor does it include many CIA organized war efforts, such as the long war against the leftist Angolan government which was waged by the U.S. and racist South Africa - nor does it include all the countries intervened/invaded by the U.S. in World War I and World War II.

But anyway, here's some food for thought. The listing is comprised of the Country/Date/type of intervention/and a few specifics:

PHILIPPINES/l898-1910(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, U.S. troops kill 600,000 Filipinos.

CUBA/l898-1902(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, U.S. still illegally holds Navy base there over Cuban objections.

PANAMA/1901-03(-?)/Naval, troops/Broke off from Colombia in a U.S. organized 'rebellion', U.S. annexes Canal Zone.

HONDURAS/l903/Troops/U.S. Marines intervene in revolution.

DOMINICAN REP./1903-04/Troops/U.S. business interests protected in Revolution.

KOREA/1904-05/Troops/U.S. Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.

CUBA/1906-09/Troops/U.S. Marines land in democratic election.

NICARAGUA/1907/Troops/"Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate (psuedo- colony) set up.

HONDURAS/l907/Troops/U.S. Marines land during war with Nicaragua.

PANAMA/l908/Troops/U.S. Marines intervene in election contest.

NICARAGUA/l9l0/Troops/U.S. Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.

HONDURAS/1911/Troops/U.S. business interests protected in civil war.

CHINA/1911-41/Naval, troops/Continuous occupation with flare-ups

CUBA/1912/Troops/U.S. business interests protected in Havana.

PANAMA/l9l2/Troops/U.S. Marines land during heated election.

HONDURAS/l9l2/Troops/Marines protect U.S. economic interests.

NICARAGUA/1912-33/Troops, bombing/20-year occupation, fought guerrillas.

MEXICO/l9l3/Naval/Americans evacuated during revolution.

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1914/Naval/Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.

MEXICO/1914-18/Naval, troops/Series of interventions against Mexican nationalists.

HAITI/1914-34/Troops, bombing/19-year occupation after revolts.

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1916-24/Troops/8-year U.S. Marine occupation.

CUBA/1917-33/Troops/Military occupation, U.S. declares Cuba an economic protectorate (psuedo-colony).

USSR/1918-22/Naval, troops/Five landings to fight Bolsheviks in effort to overthrow the fledgling socialist government.

PANAMA/1918-20/Troops/"Police duty" during unrest after elections.

HONDURAS/l9l9/Troops/U.S. Marines land during election campaign.

GUATEMALA/1920/Troops/2-week intervention against unionists.

TURKEY/1922/Troops/U.S. fought nationalists in Smyrna.

CHINA/1922-27/Naval, troops/Deployment during nationalist revolt.

HONDURAS/1924-25/Troops/Landed twice during election strife.

PANAMA/1925/Troops/U.S. Marines suppress general strike.

CHINA/l928-34/Troops/U.S. Marines stationed throughout the country.

EL SALVADOR/l932/Naval/Warships sent during Marti revolt.

KOREA/l951-53(-?)/Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats/U.S.& South Korea fight China & North Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in l950, and against China in l953. China accuses U.S. of biological warfare. Still have bases.

IRAN/l953/Covert/CIA overthrows democratically elected socialist premier, installs Shah as dictator.

GUATEMALA/l954/Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat/CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalizes U.S. companies' lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.

LEBANON/l958/Troops, naval/U.S. Marine occupation against rebels.

PANAMA/1958/Troops/Flag protests erupt into confrontation.

VIETNAM/l960-75/Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats/Fought South Vietnamese revolt & North Vietnam during the Vietnamese civil war; over two million Vietnamese casualties in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.

LAOS/1961/Covert/Military buildup during guerrilla war.

CUBA/l961/Covert/CIA-directed exile invasion fails.

PANAMA/l964/Troops/Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.

INDONESIA/l965/Covert/One million-plus killed in CIA-assisted army coup. CIA provides assassination lists to military, plus weapons.

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1965-66/Troops, bombing/U.S. Marines land during election campaign.

GUATEMALA/l966-67/Covert/Green Berets intervene against rebels.

CAMBODIA/l969-75/Bombing, troops, naval/Up to 2 million killed in decade during/after U.S. invasion of Cambodia and bombing, starvation, and political chaos.

OMAN/l970/Covert/U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion to intervene in Omani civil war.

LAOS/l971-73/Command operation, bombing/U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.

CHILE/1973/Covert/CIA funds and backs coup ousts democratically-elected Marxist president and installs brutal military dictatorship.

CAMBODIA/l975/Troops, bombing/Intervenes to seize captured ship, 28 die in copter crash.

IRAN/l980/Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing/Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.

LIBYA/l981/Naval jets/Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.

EL SALVADOR/l981-?/Covert/U.S. mercenaries, military advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war.

NICARAGUA/l981-90/Covert, naval/CIA funds, trains, equips and directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.

HONDURAS/l982-?/Troops/Maneuvers, help build bases near borders to intimidate Nicaragua.

LEBANON/l982-84/Naval, bombing, troops/Marines expel PLO and back Christian Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions.

GRENADA/l983-84/Troops, bombing/Invasion four years after socialist revolution. U.S. installs puppet government.

LIBYA/l986/Bombing, naval/Air strikes try to topple nationalist gov't.

BOLIVIA/1987/Troops/Coast Guard and Army assists raids on cocaine region.

IRAN/l987-88/Naval, bombing/US intervenes on side of Iraq in Gulf War.

LIBYA/1989/Naval jets/Two Libyan jets shot down.

PANAMA/1989-?/Troops, bombing/Nationalist government ousted by invasion. U.S. installs puppet government and refuses to hold new elections.

LIBERIA/1990-?/Troops/Foreigners evacuated during civil war; troops protect CIA communications/listening post.

SAUDI ARABIA/1990-?/Troops, jets/Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. Forces also in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.

IRAQ/1990-?/Naval, bombing, troops/Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports; large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.

KUWAIT/1991-?/Naval, bombing, troops/Attacks on Iraqi military; effort to return dictatorial royal family to throne.

Now I am sure you could all name another dozen or more examples of US military action across the globe in the years hence

[This message has been edited by Joseph27 (edited 08-01-2003).]

[T2K]

Pre-1939, an age of imperialism and Western dominace of the planet.  No UN to oversea elections, evacuate civilians, and do "peacekeeping".  The US looks after its small overseas interests in a less aggressive way than other major powers.

1939-1945, Many US "interventions" seem to have been left out of this period.
Such as warmongering and unprovoked  attacks on peace-loving Italy, Germany, and Japan.  Those need to be added to the list.

1945-1990, It's called the Cold War.  Anyone remember the USSR?  Would you rather they be the world's only superpower.  We've been through this before.

The list is laughable in its blatant bias.

Just taking the most recent listing:

"KUWAIT/1991-?/Naval, bombing, troops/Attacks on Iraqi military; effort to return dictatorial royal family to throne."

Huh?!  I guess those Iraqis troops were there on holiday by invitation from Kuwait?  And had the US done anything other than "return the dictatorial royal family to the throne" this listing would say we "installed a puppet government".  As usual, the US is damned if we do, damned if we don't.  We get zero thanks for liberating this country from a foreign invader.  At least France was temporarily grateful...

[pacifist]

Thank you for your support Protagonist. Let us get organised to kick the arse of the evil empire.

Happy new year to you too, and God bless you and all the members of your clan!

T2K, I agree that the list is a bit questionable, and your example is right to the spot. But what would you think if you were a Vietnamese or a Nicaraguan farmer, and you were shot by US soldiers or terrorists financed and trained by the US because the government you have voted for doesn't please them?

The cold war justifies it? Bullsh1t! The US started it!!! It would be like justifying the nazi concentration camps by the fact that there was a genocide (e.g.: you can't have a genocide without concentration camps, so concentration camps were justified).

You have to understand that to many in this world the foreign policies of the US are not very different from the home policies of nazi Germany.

[This message has been edited by pacifist (edited 08-01-2003).]

[Joseph27]

I agree that the list is questionable -

I would agree however that the USSR was a creation of the USA.  They just didnt really exist as a threat in 1945 - they were down and almost out - the country side ruined - infrastructure was unable to cope with the needs of the people - but then overnight they went from being 'friends' to the most hateful murderous people ever.  

The US for all their demonising of Nazism - took their best and brightest despite their records and used them to make new weapons for the use of the USA.  

I am not saying that the USA is anywhere near as evil as Nazi Germany - however I do acknowledge the point that as a victim of US action over the past decades it would be hard to differential the two on a personal scale.  As a Vietnamese peasant, a few decades back, watching your entire village being murdered would hardly endear you to the Red While and Blue.  

[T2K]

The lack of knowledge about the Cold War and its origins being demonstrated here is typical.  The people who beat the drum about America's evil foreign policies are the ones quickest to forget what little they ever knew about the USSR, its actions and its goals.

Pacifist-

"...what would you think if you were a Vietnamese or a Nicaraguan farmer, and you were shot by US soldiers or terrorists financed and trained by the US...?"

Probably the same thing I would think if I were shot by soldiers or terrorists trained by the USSR or one of its satellite states.
Which was a much more common occurence I might add.  Are you familiar with the means used by Marxist/Leninist insurgents (supported by the USSR) to gain converts to their cause?

Joseph27,

"They just didnt really exist as a threat in 1945 - they were down and almost out - the country side ruined - infrastructure was unable to cope with the needs of the people - but then overnight they went from being 'friends' to the most hateful murderous people ever."

That is totally incorrect.  The Cold War was started by the USSR even before the hot war in Europe was over.  The USSR was driving to capture as much territory as possible, all of which would be under its control, so that it could increase its industrial base.  Denmark was only narrowly saved in the Spring of 1945 by a fast move by British troops.  Elections in occupied Eastern European territories which were supposed to happen (as per the Yalta agreement) never did.  Attempts at rebellion (ie Czechoslovakia 1956) were crushed by force.

The Germans at their best (Fall of 1942) only occupied perhaps 10% of the USSR, much of this rural.  The Soviets had moved most of their heavy manufacturing east of the Ural mountains where the Germans never penetrated.  The country side was hardly devastated.  Casualties were heavy, but the USSR could afford it.

If the USSR was so weak, how was it able to mount a major offensive operation against large Japanese forces in Manchuria in Aug 1945?  How was it able to plan an invasion of the Japanese home island of Hokkaido which was only averted by the Japanese surrender?  Both of these moves, by the way, were purely for post war positioning since the USSR already saw the western democracies as enemies even before the war was over.

Within months of the end of the war, the Soviets were already supporting communist insurgents in Greece and encouraging Yugoslavian communists to infiltrate into Italy.

Bottom Line - The Cold War was started by the USSR and the USSR was a strong and dangerous enemy.  The US certainly didn't create them or give them imaginary strength or fake intentions.  The US and our allies did, however, contest their efforts (sometimes with unpleasant means) and won.  And the world is a better place for it, because the USSR as the sole superpower would be a terrible thing.

[pacifist]

Protagonist, may I know where your list comes from? And any other good internet site? I am considering trying to organise a world boycott of american products and need all the information at hand.

[pacifist]

T2K, More common or less common, killing a human being is always wrong, whatever his color of the skin or nationality.

I am sorry to see that you think it is correct to torture and murder people as long as your way of life is preserved.

Since I don't have the same view as you I guess we don't have anything else to argue about.

[Imagine]

I find the list of countries very impressive.

However, none of the countries mentioned do comply to the second part of the question: "... start the constrution of a more democratic world."

[T2K]

Pacifist,

Yep, killing is wrong.  But, every year of recorded human history shows that if you beat all your swords into plows, you'll be doing the plowing for the guys with the swords.

You're also right that, since I live in the world of reality and you live in an imaginary world, we really don't have much to argue about.  For instance, you somehow seem to believe that just ignoring violent, Soviet-sponsored insurgencies would have made it all go away.

Anyway, you don't have time to do all this internet jousting.  You've got boycotts to run and global anti-US coalitions to get started.  And you live in just the right world to suceed, fortunately.