Nualum:
>> Here are proposals for looking
>> >> forward:For those places we have made into messes, i.e. Iraq, Afghanistan, and Haiti, pay the piper. That means provide the resources necessary to bring them back to functioning well. This means immense infusions of money and personnel.
I think that is exactly what the US is "trying" to do. Instead of harping on the US using the typical shrill of the European inferiority complex, why doesn't Europe, Russia, or China actually propose solutions or put forth expensive Marshall-plan type efforts? Look at Somalia as an example. THe US effort was initially purely Humanitarian. Somalia is Godforsaken country that had an incredibly harsh famine. Where was the rest of the world? Where was France with all her haughtiness? I did not see any relief effort in place ex ante. But then the US had to confront Aidide who was cornering the reflief market and buying arms for his army of drunken 12 year olds. So while the US engaged them, the US was condemned by the world community!!! What a bloody joke.
SO solution #1, ALL countries give up their political and military aspirations and positioning with Afghanistan and other countries put $$ where their mouths ALWAYS are and build the darned country!! And before you say that the US should clean up "its mess," we are talking about a country that has been in dire poverty for 30 years. There has been no infrastructure for years. The mkt value of structures detroyed by the US defeat of the Taliban cost only a few million dollars tops. But you see, the world won't do ANYTHING. Global politicians just talk and talk and talk. All the meanwhile, the people of countries like Afghanistan went to pot. I for one, would love to see a major Marshall plan in Afghnastan. But you see, nothing of the sort will ever be proposed by Europe. Ever. SO until they do the US will use its $$ and rebuild Afghan in a way more favorable to the US.
>>>We created the messes. It is our >>>responsibility to clean them up.
Well let's see. The USSR invaded Afghan. The US supplied arms to the Mujaheddin. The foreign Al Qaeda and taliban took over the war torn waste. And the "mess" created by the US, was minor in terms of $$ costs. SO who should foot the bill? East (1) Russia, (2) Saudi Arbia, (3) US, (4) UN. Who actually does ANYTHING about it. Easy. The US. If the other three put real sums of $$ into the process, that would be great and they would be able to develop a truly consensus approach.
Haiti: Much trickier. Reposnsibility is easy. France and the US. And then the IDB and OAS and then the UN. Requires a long-term solution. Neither country is willing to sink too much in since the country is truly, truly poor and corrupt. Well, starting from the bottom. The UN won't do jack. Next, the IDB and OAS, are typical for the region. Talk alot of smack about the US and then will not lift a finger or fund any activity for its own poorest--such a corrupt region of the world. So it is up to France and the US. There is potential here, but both countries have big egos and France will take advantage of any opportunity it gets to stick it to the US. But is Haiti solely an "American" mess? Hardly.
Finally, we have Iraq. Within 15 years, Germany and Japan were rebuilt into economic powerhouses. Both countries had long histories of academic, commerical , and industrial success. Iraq? Maybe 2000 years ago. If the US had copoperation from the Europe, in five years, Iraq would have been more technically advanced and free than it has been in 2 or 3 generations. Now the handover will take place prematurely. Fine. I don't want my tax $$ gong to a bnch of fanatics. But things were slowly getting back into order before the terrorists and the lack of support from the G-8 made early handover politically desireable.
But I agreee with your principle. I think the US SHOULD try to fix its messes. What I find ludicrous on this board, is that most think that any country other than the US has the same responsibility. My God, look at the disater of Africa. Creations of the real colonial masters: Dutch, UK, France, Belgium, and Spain. What have THEY done in the past 50 years for Africa? ZIP. Still the poorest spot on the planet. Talk about hypocrites!! And what of Palestine pre WW2? Why, it was British!! What of the bloody entire Middle East? UK and French.
Face it, we ALL can step it up. Yet, why don't other wealthy countries look inward first at how they have made a mess of the developing world before getting all teray eyed over Bush. Makes me ill.
For those places we have not yet made into messes, do not start any preemptive war.
>>> Sounds good. No sense in trying to hit a moving target--all else equal...
Work with our allies, the UN, any anyone else interested in finding solutions.
>>>The UN as allies. Hmmm. MOst funding comes from US. MOst personnel from US? ALL countries use the UN for their own means. It is an elist bastion of hot air. DOn't kid yourself with idealism and the UN. And these comments go even if there were no US.
Use negotiations and diplomacy.
>>How about this. the UN should solve problems using negotiations and diplomacy as the "primary" weapon of choice. SO when in Yugoslavia, when negotiations and diplomacy brokedown, quickly the UN should have muscled up and put an end to the problem. Instead, they did NADA. Ethnic cleansing galore.
Don't wait for the US. We are thin skinned. We see hundred and thousands of people being killed and all we see are a bunch of Euro ministers balbbing on and on. F*** that. A few thousand sorties later and boom we have stability and peace in the area. A perfect peace. Of course not. But a peace nonetheless. SO yes, let's reduce the bellicosity of the US but let's also get Europe to get off their ass**es and DO something for once.
Be serious about solving the Israel-Palestine problem. Both sides are waiting for the US to do something substantive and forceful.
>>> Well, let's see. The UK created the problem. Both parties have a 2000 year-old grievance. Why the f*** do you think the US should "do something substantive and forceful?" Am I the only here that finds your expetations laughable?? The only positive movements coming out of Europe on these matters come from the Scandinavians--great respect for them. They actually do something. The French and the Germans simply move to compete with the US. They could care less about that region.
YEs, the US should do something, but so should other countries do something "forceful and powerful." How bloody pathetic.
Yes, forceful, which doesn't mean invasion. It means making realistic demands of both parties.
>>Well, no invasion of Palestine yet...but there have been several wars and offensive actions taken by all countries in the region. But according to your formula...most likely designed by Dr. O... just all the US´s fault. Come on, Nualum. You can do better than that!
Stop trying to undermine the UN. Help strengthen it.
>>> See earlier comments. Let's see. How about the entire UN move out of NY to Paris and let the EC fund its entire operations? Just as I suspected, but, but, bb,...whatever.
Sign the Kyoto Treaty and live up to its requirements.
>>>Puzzling. Since I am sure you know nothing about the details of Kyoto.
Here is the deal. If the US goes back to isolationism and real honest-to-God trade wars, you would see a recession in the US. NO question. But in the world, geez, it would be a bloody depression. So all this yapping about US consumerism (the real subtext of Kyoto) is patently ridculous since without it, joe blow foreign exporter will lose 50%+ of their market. Don't equate not signing Kyoto with anti-Bushism or anti-environmentalism. The proof is in the pudding.
Sign some of the other international treaties this administration has scorned: anti mines, a world court with real authority, etc.
>>Let's see. Hmmm and NO. Regulating war seems pointless. But I would be in for a ban on land mines. Sure, provided someone other than the US fun enforcement. What, you don't want to pay for an enforecement?? Well, if you don't, then emphatically NO--another toothless hot air proposition.
>>Global Court? Good grief, cut the psuedo utopian crap. If the folks in Angola invade Uganda and start maiming folks left and right, the US and other folks interested in stopping such things should intervene militarily IMMEDIATELY. KICK BUTTS. Stop the bloodshed. Then when the situation on the ground has stabilized, we turn over the suspects to the courts.
But surely you gest if you think that any pof the G-8 will subject itself to a "foreign" court.
Folks my family survived the Japanese and the Nazis in WW2. They saw first hand the difference between hot air and hot action. Countries always protect their own. Internationalism is a pipe dream. When push came to shove in the budget and political crisis in Europe Germany and France (1) chose to threaten the Candidate countries and (2) completely breaken THEIR own rules on their booming budget deficits (Yes, Virginia, other countries besides the US have HUGE budget deficits!!)
Such freakin' hypocrisy and naivete!!
SO Nualum, I agreee with your spirit, but when you actually see how things are done and what the letter of the law really truly means, you'll realize that wholesale attacks on the US and a guilt-free rest of the world are just too laughable to take serious. And one thing is for sure, any Democrat taking a pro-world anti-US position will have a short political life in the US.
