Spanking

[Sue C]

OK, I will get this going again.

Reading over the "Tantrums" thread on the other page people have expressed different views on disciplining children.

Some have said yes spanking is OK, others have called it abuse and still others have stated that slapping a child in the face is an acceptable form of discipline.

I was wondering about what is "acceptable"?  For instance I think a quick smack on the offending limb (i.e. if a child is reaching for something you know is going to hurt them, an electrical cord for instance), or a couple of smacks on the bottom is acceptable when the occassion calls for it.  However I would consider slapping a child on the face "hitting" and therefore abuse.

I think each child is different and therefore needs different methods.  "Time out" or being sent to his/her rooms may be what one child needs and another might need a spanking.

I don't have children myself but I have a multitude of neices and nephews and in our family everybody is involved and this includes discipline when the child is with you as well as fun.

What do other people think?

[expat1]

Generally, I think we parent the way we were parented.  I was spanked.  I spank my kids.  I try to do it less than my parents did to me.  However, it amazes me to see myself act just like my father did.  IMHO, spanking, slapping or hitting can be ok so long as it is not abusive.  It is not my first reaction and it is never very hard and certainly never hard enough to physically injure.   Anybody who hits a child hard enough to injure them has their own problems.

Children need boundaries.  They will push and test you until you define the boundaries of acceptable behaviour.  Spanking is one way, which I think works, of teaching children such boundaries.  

[orangie]

I have a lot of experience in this area and generally speaking, if a child "needs" spanking to behave, then the parents have not disciplined the child properly in the first place.

No amount of spanking is going to be effective in teaching children right from wrong. It only teaches them fear of being spanked. We all know about other negative effects that it can also have on kids.

Children can be taught using Maslow's theory of conditioning (eg by spanking or rewarding), yes that is true.

However, if parents take the time to educate themselves on parenting, they would realise that they in fact to not NEED to spank at all to discipline a child.

[Joseph27]

Physical discipline is fine - but must in done deliberately and with a specific purpose and end in mind. It should never be carried out as a quick reaction without thinking. Ultimately a child will test you thoroughly - you can instill discipline in them but ultimately a 2 year old going mad cannot be reasoned with using pure logic. I have come from a family of 9 children and have enough experience with nieces and nephews to know that sometimes boundaries must be enforced.

This concept occurs right throughout our lives.  Indeed if you break the law in Singapore in a totally callous way- you are likely to get the cane - as indeed that young American boy did.  Those politically correct chums who cant stand the thought of violence jumped up and down at this - though many simply smiled knowing it was the right thing to do.

I guess it comes down to your perception of the world - personally I believe in boundaries being enforced in people - guidelines by which we must live our lives.  If these do not exists people continue to push the boundaries of acceptable behaviour.

Personally when I have my children I may if the occasion calls for it - spank them on the tush if reason isnt possible. I will hate doing it - but I want my children to respect their position

[nikki m]

I thought that spanking was an acceptable form of child rearing before we began our family.  Once I looked into my newborns sweet face and saw the absolute trust he had in me I knew that violating him with hitting was never an option so instead we set limits, boundries and parameters and have thus far reared a very fine young man. Our way takes alot of patience, consistency and dilligence but the pay offs are huge and best of all no anger from him and no guilt for me and he is an incredible human.

[SoSo]

Two things have struck me while reading these threads. No one has actually defined what they mean by spanking and I wonder if there are some "non-spankers" who think us "spankers" are regularly taking our children, putting them over our laps and bashing the sh*t out of the poor beggers!

I tend to think that most of us think of a "spank" as a quick slap, maybe two, across the legs to give a sting that makes a child come to his/her senses.

The other extreme, of course, is the idea that a "non-spanker" will take his/her child aside after the child has pinched, punched, had a tantrum and said "oh you naughty thing - you mustn't do that" and left it at that. All that would do is condition the child to expect no punishment for a wrong doing...

As I said in the other thread, I was spanked as a child and as others have written, I knew that I had done something wrong - well, at least most of the time. I didn't resent my parents for that and accepted it as a form of teaching through discipline.

I have always considered my role as a parent as being one where I have taken the responsibility to bring up a human spirit, help them cope with problems, encourage them to grow mentally and be able to mature into adults that can cope with their lives and hopefully achieve success & happiness in their lives.

I see no point in spoiling them - it merely teaches them that they don't need to accept resonsibility for their actions and as they grow older they have problems in dealing with situations which they feel harsh. Spanking is merely a method of teaching children that extreme behaviour will generate an extreme response. It's part of growing up and understanding that we reap what we sow.

Finally, I have seen the argument that spanking leads to physical abuse. Quite frankly, I can't believe that if any person who is screwed up enough to beat up a child will stop if there is a law saying "sorry - you can't spank". There is already a law saying you can't beat anyone - let alone children - and there are still very distressing cases of child abuse.

[orangie]

I don't think it is a question of whether to discipline a child or not. The question is do you need to spank a child to punish them?

[SoSo]

Teaching children discipline is the process of teaching the SELF discipline - punishment is not the question. In their lives they will have to understand that their actions will incur reactions. If they act in an extreme manner - there will be an extreme reaction.

The alternative is to give them the impression that extreme acts will incur mild reactions and this is definitely not the case.

[maxthecat]

I've said my lot in the "tantrums" thread, but have an anecdote from the day before yesterday.

When my wife went to pick up our 10-year old daughter from school, a police officer was giving the mother of one of the girls in her class a ticket for double parking.  After they had driven off, another girl in her class (10 years old !!) went over and started arguing with the police officer, using profanity !!

I'll bet you dollars to donuts she's not spanked at home -- absolutely no respect for authority.

[This message has been edited by maxthecat (edited 17-01-2002).]

[Die Toten Hosen]

Dear orangie,

I have a lot of experience in this area and generally speaking, if a child "needs" spanking to behave, then the parents have not disciplined (How? Children tend to push the limit to find out how far they can go.  I did it  ) the child properly in the first place.

No amount of spanking is going to be effective in teaching children right from wrong. (Of course, spanking alone doesn’t help. When I beat someone up without reason, of course he doesn’t know why. Even when the victim is a clever adult.)

Children can be taught using Maslow's theory of conditioning (eg by SPANKING    or rewarding), yes that is true.

However, if parents take the time to educate themselves on parenting, they would realise that they in fact to not NEED to spank at all to discipline (Again, how? You own the audience how.) a child.

I think that a moderate spanking is OK.  Especially when I think about the alternative most parents use.
Withdrawal of love, attention and so on, that is pure terror for a child.  

[Queen Mum]

I think one of the big reasons that parents resort to spanking is because they don't know of another option when it comes to discipline.  Spanking and shouting may be all we know.  We don't come programmed to know how to parent effectively in all situations.  It takes effort and education to explore other options and to find out what works best in your family, and with each child's personality. I have read  several books lately: DISCIPLINE WITHOUT SHOUTING OR SPANKING, 1-2-3 MAGIC, AND KIDS PARENTS AND POWER STRUGGLES.  All these are great if you are trying to find an effective way to guide your child's behaviour without spanking. If anyone would like other references to books on this subject, pls email me.

[Lucky]

I recently experienced something very disturbing related to this issue.  Please read this and tell me what you would have done.

Got on the MRT and took a seat.  Several stops later, several Chinese people get on.  An older woman with a small girl (age 5?) and a small boy (age 3?) sit right next to me.  The old woman is protectively clutching the children to her as another Chinese woman proceeds to repeatedly shove and hit the little girl in the head and face VERY HARD.  She must have hit her 5 times in a row.  Almost like a punch without a closed fist.  The little girl cried silently and just stood there.

Now, myself and the other passengers around me were stunned by this quick sequence of events.  Everyone looked horrified but kept to themselves.  At this point, it was hard to tell if the abuser was even with the girl ... she WAS with a Chinese man, though.

Well, after waiting for about a moment, the abusive woman starts vigorously pointing her finger at the girl and berating her in Chinese.  She winds up to begin a fresh beating, and before I knew it I had thrown my hands in front of the little girl and looked into the womans face and said very sternly "THAT'S ENOUGH." The woman proceeded to turn her back to me and let the girl alone.

Now, I felt that I had done the right thing because this was no "spanking."  It was a beating ... the kind that could cause serious physical injury.  But I wonder what the people around me thought?  Everyone seemed to just stare at me, although some smiled as if they had approved of what I had done.  I wonder if they thought I did a good thing or saw me as an intruder (I am a 23 year old American girl).

Would you have done the same thing?

[CheshireCat]

Lucky,
I think you were absolutely right to intervene.I would've done the same thing.Some of these old women should hang their heads in shame as I have seen this sort of behaviour alot here.You are right when you say that that sort of behaviour is different from the odd smack for general unrulyness.It's intimidating and thoroughly out of line!!

[nosy]

well done, Lucky!

Poeple like you are rare. Well done! Sounds like the woman needs a good beating herself.

[Zen]

Spanking has been proven detrimental to children due to its harmful side effects.

1. It doesn't teach the child an alternative behaviour, nor why his behaviour was wrong.

 2. It may lead to the child fearing the punisher, then generalizing it to other authority figures as well, so that the child fears all authority figures. This could put the child in a disadvantaged position because he shuts himself off from all people who could be beneficial to him, instructing him.

 3. Emotional problems later in life.

 4. Sexual issues related to childhood spanking (buttocks also erogeneous zone).

 5. Desire for revenge. Two reactions to punishment: the initial violent reaction, and the slower burning negativity that may show itself years later.

 6. It could lead to a hatred for the very behaviour the punishment was to encourage. Say, if you spank a child for not doing his homework, he could start to hate doing it.

There are many more, but these are the main pts I remember. Hopefully PARENTs won't ever spank their children because the side effects are harmful and numerous.

Oh yeah, John Watson also did this expt on an 11-mth old baby known as Little Albert. He conditioned the child to fear white rats, becos every time the child reached out to touch one, Watson would strike a metal bar behind Albert's head --> loud sound. Albert stiffened up, cried, turned away when he saw the white rats, because he had been punished for showing interest in them. He also generalized the fear to other furry white objects such as a white rabbit and a Santa Claus mask. No one knew what happened to him because he was taken out of the hospital before he could be un-conditioned. Really bad, but the expt took place in 1924 or 1920.