Where is Conscience?

[so what]

The word "terrorist" per definition has no connection to religion.
A terrorist can be any person regardless of religious background.

However, the interpretation of the the word terrorist, for certain reasons over the years has developed a strong connection with Islam.
I would say that to some extend the Islamic terrorists have called this judgement upon themselves and fellow believers.
Publius is absolutely correct with his statement that the Quran tells people to do bad acts as this is exactly the message send by Muslim terrorists and their leaders.

Terrorism is based of fear.
What is more scary than a Muslim terrorist who is promised to eternal pleasure and therefor is not afraid to die with his victims?

The strong influence of Islam as a political religion in many countries, only increases the possibility of an individual Muslim being judged because of the acts of a whole country or group.

Islam is not a voluntary religion. Muslims are not motivated to study and interprete the Quran individually. They are however asked to accept and follow interpretations given to them by their leaders.
It is exactly this level of control that enables Islam to maintain "punishment" on Muslims who have different ideas or even reject Islam.
Many Muslims don't even slightly consider studying alternative religions when confronted with the unbearable physical or mental consequences this might have.
From that point of view you might even claim that Isalm terrorizes its own members.

Bitko, I urge you to be careful when you make a claim that there are no anti-christian websites operated by Muslims.
Just google for it and you will find plenty.

Once more, the danger of Islam lies not in the individual interpretation of Muslims (which are not appreciated anyway), but in whole countries and political entities forcefully subscribing their citizens and followers to a pre-defined and unchallengeable standard.

[This message has been edited by so what (edited 09-04-2005).]

[Bitko]

So what, you said:
"Islam is not a voluntary religion. Muslims are not motivated to study and interprete the Quran individually. They are however asked to accept and follow interpretations given to them by their leaders.
It is exactly this level of control that enables Islam to maintain "punishment" on Muslims who have different ideas or even reject Islam."
Looking back now I find that my 8 years in an Islamic school has gone to a waste, since they taught me all the wrong things, according to you. They taught me that every individual muslim has the right to question or reject Islam, not only have the freedom to interpret the religion. It is part of Taqwa(meditation and learning) to question ones faith and existence and importance of God.
If what you say is right then why the Bush Administration is putting pressure on Egyptian Gov't to quell religious freedom of muslims by banning sermons delivered by individual Imams at mosques, where after the gov't would supply one sermon to be delivered at all mosques. What you say is very absurd, because no individual or authority has the right to declare anybody an unfaithful, rgardless of his/her actions, that right in Islam is only reserved by God, but in Pakistan the gov't has declared certain muslim sects as non-muslim. In most of the countries, Islam plays very little role, in shaping socio-political view, it has more to do with a male-dominated society that has been ravaged by illiteracy and bad governments. Not every muslim women wears hijab(head scarf), and my wife, despite being a devout muslim, doesn't wear either. But we have many friends who do wear hijab, they respect us and we respect them, because we all do not interpret the Quran the same way. There are those who support suicide bombings, but most, also myself, see the act unIslamic. There are people in the Gulf, who rape their Philipino/South Asian maids, because a passage in the Quran says that, one can have sex with ones slaves. Taking quranic passages out of context is a common practice of bad muslims and those who want to defame Islam.
I am not very computer literate perhaps, you can help me with that google search. The reason I thought there wouldn't be anti-Christian website by a muslim, because saying negative about other religion is not allowed in Islam, not that it has stopped many muslims from doing so, and just as that not everything all muslims do is out of the teachings of the Quran either.  

[This message has been edited by Bitko (edited 10-04-2005).]

[charlieb]

So what, just out of curiosity, do you think most christians actually study and interpret the Bible individually? Don't most of them also believe and follow what their leaders say?

I ask because I have a friend, who studies and believes in the bible but does not belong to any church, says that what most churches teach and preach is nothing but absolute hogwash.

[so what]

Bitko,
My post is not meant as a personal attack on those who believe and practice Islam in their lifes.
But since you bring the discussion to a personal level, let me ask you the following.

Assuming you live in Singapore, I need you to imagine that you live in for example Iran/Iraq.
Next thing you do is you go to your relatives and notify them that you and your wife have decided to convert to Christianity.
What will be the moral/physical actions taken by society against you and your relatives?

Charleib,
No, I don't think most or all Christians study and interpret the Bible individually.
In case of Roman Catholisism for example this is not a neccesety or requirement.

What your friend says however is also not true. I agree that many churches have different (and maybe incorrect) views on certain religious topics, but to say that therefor everything they preach is absolute hogwash, is hogwash.

Interestingly however I think that both Muslims or Christians cannot do without teachings or interpretations.
Claiming to be a Muslim but never attending the Mosq, or claiming to be a Christian but never attending church, to me is as questionable as claiming to be a Manchester United fan but never watch them play.
But that statement is food for a new discussion all together.

[Bitko]

So what, to answer you I don't have to go through too many assumptions. We have 3 Bible at home, and my father reads them regularly, and sometimes he even goes to church with his friends. I do not yet live in Singapore, but haveen making frequent trips to Singapore, as I am going through a transition of moving there from Canada. In Canada when it is Eid, we invite all our friends, not only muslims, but Christians and Jews as well. My aim all through out this thread was to bridge the gap between religions, to show that religions are not to be blamed for the ills of the society, and that there are few bad people who are truly responsible, and obviously lack of education, both religious and academic, and economic conditions, play a big role in everybodys life regardless of faith. My question to you is, if I and few others decided to open a public forum(not a web forum) to bring greater understanding between different religions, would you join us or would you avoid us because you are already sure that Quran teaches bad things.

[so what]

Good morning Bitko,

Fair reply and fair question.

On your reply.
Unfortunately Islam has developed into a political religion. Fact is that whole nations are forcing certain believes down the throat of their citizens.
The citizens in their turn might agree or disagree, but that is something we do not know as the citizens do not speak up.
Neighter do their neigbouring brother and sister countries.
The fact that you have three Bibles at home (I assume both Old and New Testament?) is in no way a representation for the Muslims around the world.

On your question.
No. I would not feel an urge to bring religions together.
Firstly because I am not an authority in the area of any religion.
Secondly because I believe that what Islam teaches is not bad, but definitely wrong.

[Joseph27]

Must say that that is a good question and engaging in a multi religious discourse should help each of us understand the world.  Unfortunately that is purely hypothetical because the moment you start to discuss religion openly you risk exposing yourself to attack; verbal attack guaranteed, physical attack not ruled out.

Unfortunately Islam has been hijacked by religious zealots and their blind understudies.  The idea of converting from Islam to Christianity anywhere would create such upheaval in the Muslim community.  Challenging the core beliefs in Islam can get a person killed; Islam has been hijacked!  The majority of Muslims will carry the faith in their hearts – the zealots will wear it on their sleeves.  The majority will be very peaceful people however they will be mindful of what it means to question their religious leaders.  It takes a brave person to raise concerns when it may mean being ostracized from your religious community.  This would be especially hard when that religious community contains your entire family and friend network.  

I believe Islam will evolve in time as it pulls away from the cultural grasp of an ostensibly Middle Eastern religion and comes into the modern world.  It will happen but it will just take time.

[Bitko]

The purpose of bringing people of different faith in a forum would not be an exercise to decipher which religion is right and which is wrong in their beliefs, but to clear misconceptions of each others beliefs. The idea of this forum came about during a conversation I had  with a friends uncle, who happens to be a jewish scholar, living in Montreal. It was really an eye opening experience to know about the Jewish faith from him. I have also done little bit studying of the Hindu and Buddhist faith.
In many muslim countries, the muslims of Shi'ite sect are ostracized because of the misonceptions Sunnis have of them. In most of the time ignorance is what leads to prejudice and racism, and we can only tackle this problem by learning about each other.

[so what]

It would be great if religions could sit together in peace and discuss each others motivations.
It would be greater if religions could decide to accept each others believes.

However, reality shows that ignorance is on the side of Islam.
As a matter of fact, where Bitko gives the example of Shi'ites and Sunnis the ignorance is within Islam.

Islam has never been a great example of the willingness to accept religions other than Islam. We see examples of that everywhere.

I applaud the efforts some of you make on this board to present your personal Islamic opinion as being openminded and lienient, reality however shows us a complete different set of values: discrimination, violence, fear, surpression and intolerance.

Bitko, your claim that a forum is not meant to decipher which religion is right and which is wrong does not give any substance to that same forum.
I tell you what my religion really teaches, and you tell me what your religion really teaches.
Meantime, the next bomb explodes.

[charlieb]

Christianity is an exclusive religion in the sense that it preaches that there is only one way to salvation. No two ways about it.

To claim you are a Christian and at the same time advocate freedom of religion is not being true to the religion.

[so what]

charlieb,

Your post would almost make sense if it wasn't so incorrect.

A) Chiristianity is not exclusive. There are many more religions preaching they are the true and only way to salvation. Islam is one of them.

B) Wrong my friend. Practice what you preach is completely different from preach what you practice.

[Bitko]

In parts of Quran, the definition of a Muslim is very simple, one who believes in ONE creator, and those who believe in ONE creator and do good will reach salvation. In Quran, it says that that those Jews, who read Torah and live according to it shall reach salvation. Quran doesn't say it is the only way, but does claim to be the best way to reach salvation.
If you are a good human being, and if you believe in God, you cannot possibly believe God is going to condemn so many to hell, because there has never been a situation where/when the majority of world population followed one religion. I personally don't believe God is so merciless.
I also believe that God is on nobody's side, regardless of your way of praying to God, when you are right God is on your side, and when you are wrong God is not on your side, so if a Muslim does wrong to a Christian/Jew, then he is wrong, period.

[so what]

Bitko, my congratulations.
With your latest post you brought Islam to the standard of "most dumb religion" in the world (apologies for my bluntness).

As long as you believe in one creator and do good, you are fine.

So, no need for:
- wearing the hijab
- acclaiming Mohammed to be Allah's prophet
- go to the mosq
- fast during ramadan
- make your trip to Mekka
- pray 3 times per day
- quit eating pork
- quit consuming alcohol
etc etc

...what are those Muslims thinking?

[charlieb]

so what,

You have misunderstood me. By "exclusive", I mean "to the exclusion of others". I did not say Christian is THE ONLY ONE, it is one of them.

Since you are wrong in saying that I'm incorrect. I am, therefore, right.

[Herald Sun]

Bitko, my congratulations.
With your latest post you brought Islam to the standard of "most dumb religion" in the world (apologies for my bluntness).
As long as you believe in one creator and do good, you are fine.

So, no need for:
- wearing the hijab
- acclaiming Mohammed to be Allah's prophet
- go to the mosq
- fast during ramadan
- make your trip to Mekka
- pray 3 times per day
- quit eating pork
- quit consuming alcohol
etc etc

...what are those Muslims thinking?

-----------------------------------------------------

"As long as you believe in one creator and do good, you are fine."

So What,

What the writer meant by the statement was that this makes the most basic foundation of the religion. The things which you mentioned a muslim needs to do are what makes the religion complete.
These rituals or traditions make Islam what it is. It gives muslims a identity of their own and teaches them their responsiblity towards their fellow humans and towards god. I guess this concept is very foreign to you. Anyways try to act like a educated person and stop insulting ANY religion, not just ISLAM. Insulting religions is a big sign of ignorance and how uneducated people who dont understand how things work but make petty comments about it just to get some attention. Rather than pointing fingers and singling out a religion, try to look at other religions as well. From what I see if one religion is flawed, others are flawed as well in their own way. So take your pick mate. Not saying you are all that, but just try not to act that way. Appreciate it.