Can We Just Cut The Cr4p For One Minute

[Dr Opinion]

It's perfectly obvious now that Saddam was no danger at all to any of his neighboring countries, let alone the United States.

Sure, a lot of people hated him, but that wouldn't justify invading his country, any more than it would justify China invading the U.S. because people hate Bush.

Sure, he used WMD on civilians, but that wouldn't justify invading his country, any more than it would justify China invading the U.S. because Bush Sr. sold Saddam WMDs and had the CIA train Saddam's people on proper handling and use.

Basically, it's perfectly obvious that there is no basis whatsoever for this war.

So how the f*ck did we get into it?  

[Publius]

Saddam's one million victims in Iran and Kuwait as well as the Saudis and Israelis shelled night after night by Scud missiles would beg to differ.

The 300,000+ Iraqis butchered during Saddam's 24 year reign of terror would also disgree.

By your analysis, Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Slobodan Milosovic, etc., ought all to go free because western countries aided them in the past.

Another stupid and simplistic rendering of a complex political dilemma.

[Manc Man]

<<By your analysis, Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Slobodan Milosovic, etc., ought all to go free because western countries aided them in the past.

Another stupid and simplistic rendering of a complex political dilemma.>>

This is a new twist, confessing how crap your post is even before others get a chance to do the same...

Where's the fun in that?

mm

[aus]

If your logic prevails, the US along with it's trade partners shoudl also be looking at the implosion that is now Africa. Did you know that millions of people are dying, Africa, not necessairly because of tyrannical dictatorships but beacsue they don't have food.

Please do not make political commentary on a subject that is obviously not your forte.

[DearDude]

Aus,

Africa is a continent of vast natural and ecological resources, with the capacity to grow food VERY easily.

Africans are starving not because they don't have enough food but because (a) they had the misfortune of being carved up European colonial interests in 1884 (not the US), (b) they were a bizarre playground for cold war residues (mainly US and USSR), (c) their public policy reads as a World Bank primer from the early 1960s, i.e. full of Marixt bullcr*p (balme to Western psuedo intellectuals), (d) their dictators are among the least educated and most corrupt in the world (blame the UK and France for indulging their shopping sprees in Paris and London and treating them like royalty), (e) they are entirely dependent on foreign aid, the UN, and NGOs (blame modern Western psuedo intellectuals, the youthful ignoranance of social activists, and global bureaucrats), and finally (f) they have failed to allow market mechanisms to allocate resources with any degree of efficiency, prefering instead to control prices or accept free handouts.

So lots of blame to go around. Treating all of this as a sunk cost, any solution will be
LONG in development
PAINFUL to watch
VOLATILE in nature
COURAGEOUS both interms of what needs to be done and what needs to be avoided. All this applies for both the given country and the world community.

[Dr Opinion]

> "...Africans are starving not because they don't have enough food but because..."

Don't get all teary-eyed blaming the Colonials.

Colonials were able occupy Africa for one reason: many African tribes hate each other even *more* than they hate foreigners. This means that "African Tribe A" would quite happily enter a devil's bargain to help Colonial troops wipe out "African Tribe B" -- as long as they got first pick of slave girls and Colonial baubles.

Why do Africans starve? Becuase Africans don't see themselves as a single people. As long as enough of them hate each other -- as they always have -- that ain't going to change any time soon.

And blaming the West won't change squat.  

[DearDude]

"...Don't get all teary-eyed blaming the Colonials..."

You obviously did not read to get your "doctorate."

"...Colonials were able occupy Africa for one reason: many African tribes hate each other even *more* than they hate foreigners..."

What is this amateur hour? The Treaty of Berlin in 1885 in which fourteen European countries (all the bg ones save Suisse) carved up Africa into spheres of influnce in part to prevent Africa from being pursued by European rvials (The US perhaps?). Before 1885, it is a STRETCH to characterize each particular instance of foreign participation as one which featured local rivlaries. You must be thinking of the Spanish takeover of Mexico?? But the proper "colonialization" was not cemented into its present deplorable state until 1884 when legal codification was realized.

"...This means that "African Tribe A" would quite happily enter a devil's bargain to help Colonial troops wipe out "African Tribe B" -- as long as they got first pick of slave girls and Colonial baubles..."

Well, let's not simplify and generalize more, shall we? Please. There is foreign profiteering, there is foreign intervention, and there is colonialization, with its legal institutionalization.

"Why do Africans starve? Becuase Africans don't see themselves as a single people. As long as enough of them hate each other -- as they always have -- that ain't going to change any time soon."

Ahhh, the best and most ignorant for last. YEs, Somalians are starving because of rivalries between The Gambia and Senegal. Yep, Angolans are starving because of the billions in armaments allocated in over 20 years of Cold War fed bloodshed. If you actually "read" my earlier points, there is much blame to go all around. West. Left. Right. Africa.

Perhaps the time has come to do less posting and more reading?

[DearDude]

Whoops. Treaty was actually signed in 1885. The prelims were all debated in 1884-85.

[Dr Opinion]

OK, first of all it is well documented that African Tribes practiced slavery long before the White man arrived. African Tribes have been capturing their own black brethren to sell to Arabs for over a thousand years. Some estimates suggest 12 million Africans were sold by Africans to Europeans, with 17 million being sold to Arabs. Some tribes continue to practice slavery  to this very day despite International revulsion.

This doesn't sound like people who liked each other much previously, and the genocides of modern day don't suggest much has changed in that regard.

What's the first step? I'd like to see Corporations publishing what they pay corrupt African dictators in kick-backs, because that cash funds a lot of the current inter-tribal scrapping. Such a notion should be made law, but I don't see Bush rushing this one through, however.  

[DearDude]

>OK, first of all it is well documented that >African Tribes practiced slavery long >before the White man arrived.

Absolutely. BUt not all of Africa fed the slave trade. Arabian slave trade mainly from NE Africa. US/Europe from "Slave" Coast region of W. Africa. Still, quite irrelevant to the dsicussion on failiresof late 20th century and early 21st century.

>>African Tribes have been capturing >>their own black brethren to sell to Arabs for over a thousand years. Some estimates suggest 12 million Africans were sold by Africans to Europeans, with 17 million being sold to Arabs. Some tribes continue to practice slavery to this >>very day despite International >>revulsion.

Yes, absolutely revolting. But again, relevancy to today?? The slave trading that goes on now is out of desperate poverty.

>>This doesn't sound like people who >>liked each other much previously, and >>the genocides of modern day don't >>suggest much has changed in that >>regard.

Hmmm, tell me again the relevance of mutual disrespect bewtween Zimbabwe and Eritrea and the failures of Mugabe?? Dude, extract yourself from the 19th century!!

>>What's the first step? I'd like to see >>Corporations publishing what they pay >>corrupt African dictators in kick-backs, >>because that cash funds a lot of the >>current inter-tribal scrapping.

Yes, lots of evil there. I agree.

>>Such a notion should be made law, but >>I don't see Bush rushing this one >>through, however.

Ahhh, your hidden agenda. I just LOL and how Bush gets under people's skin. Sure, Clinton was president for eight years and did jack with Africa. And yes, American presidents going way way back have barely lifted a finger for Africa, much like Europe, though without the colonialism.

Dr. O, by your 20 posts a day, we all  know you hate Bush. But before you go spouting off conspiracy theory after irrelevant venting, CHILL OUT, DUDE!!

Once Bush is gone you will see that the rich and powerful will always screw the weak. The only real issue worth discussing is how to make sure the weak escape with a net benefit, with their dignity, and with hope that things will get better little by little.

Drop the anti-Bush routine, amico. It is getting tiresome...

[Dr Opinion]

> "...Ahhh, your hidden agenda. [...] we all know you hate Bush..."

Sounds like a contradiction, but I'll let this one go.  

> "...But before you go spouting off conspiracy theory after irrelevant venting, CHILL OUT, DUDE!!..."

No conspiracy, dude. Clinton never promised to barge around the planet "bringing peace and democracy". I'm just wondering about Bush's timetable for the armed invasion of Africa bringing "peace and democracy". They sure could use some down there.  

> "...the rich and powerful will always screw the weak..."

What you miss is that this is a vital and wholesome part of human nature. Without this drive to gain power and advance ourselves, we'd all still be, well, living in Africa.  

> "...hope that things will get better little by little..."

That sounds rather lame. Why not tackle the problem at the source?

Instead of quandering their resources on guns and armored cars, these people should be respecting each other and getting along.

That's what needs to happen. Stop killing each other, stop blaming Colonials, and take adult responsibility for the situation that they demanded: independence.

Since this is a given, why instead are you stuck on this sophomoric Colonials-broke-Africa rant?  

> "...Drop the anti-Bush routine, amico. It is getting tiresome..."

I'll stop ragging on the corrupt dickwad when he's gone. And not before. Hope this helped.