Serious NonPolitcal Interesting Topic

[skank]

Issues With How We Live Today

I put this here instead of out there in troll-land because I'm interested in serious discourse with interested parties on this topic. I don't feel like an alarmist or anthing like that. I am truely doing this within my life & believe so much in what I am saying that I have acted on it as indicated below. Curious what others have to say here in our expat community. .

OK guys here’s goes/ This is what I consider a nonpolitical or apolitical topic that others may construe as a radical one depending on how you interpret it. I have serious issues or doubts about the planet being able to substain the type of lifestyle needed to bring on the magic engine of ‘economic growth’ everyone is always harping about. I mean it is a closed system of limited resources & the human race can in some ways be viewed as a cancer that may eventually consume or destroy the host. Most probably before that occurs horrific conflicts will break out over dwindling resources between the have’s & have nots (Iraq is early case in point)

The time of reckoning is drawing nearer & nearer & actually could be just around the corner. You know if things start to unravel at some point very quickly your ‘money’ could easily turn into mere paper. So what do we as mere individuals do about it? Whats the point of stocking up on gold unless you've got it stashed in a secure location available to only you.

I don’t consider myself a survivalist or ‘tree hugging’ environmentalist but I do feel like I need to be ready if this eventuality comes to pass in my or my children’s lifetime, & I’m don’t feel I’m be pessimistic here but being a pragmatic realist by  preparing for it.

If I was rich I’d just find a way to emigrate to New Zealand & be done with it but I’m not. So I’ve built a house in a very remote area of the Philippines that is touted even by Lonely Planet as ‘the most isolated, least populated, & poorest region there’.

Yes this is about as far away from the ‘real’ world as you can get & nobody & I mean nobody even the rich land grubbing Manila aristocracy seems interested in this place which is exactly the point. We’ve been quietly buying up land around us for a several years & now we own a total of over 20acres of fertile arable land. One reason I chose this area is it is home to one of the most abundant & active fresh water ecosystems I've seen anywhere. Since, having been in the water business for close to twenty years, I believe he who has access to a potable water will  be the true winner in the times to come, this was the KEY part of my decsion makeing process. We also drilled  our own well, actually we have two, one that pumps water to a holding tank & then to our house & another hand pump operated one for when there is no power. We do have electricity, a satellite dish, hot water etc, BUT not many people there do. I built a septic tank system for the loo which was a huge chore, nobody there undertood what I was on about with the drain field etc but it’s done & it works perfectly.  If the Big Switch is turned off & the power goes out we could easily go back to the way things were before it came. We have an irrigation pump but we also have gravity run bamboo pipings to the fields that were previously used. Hand plows & buffalo’s are part of our menagrie of animal & items.

Bottom line for me, if the world turns to sh1te if I can get there I’ll be safe. I mean Singapore scares me sometimes, all somebody needs to do is turn of the water & the place could only last a matter of days. Look what happened during WWII here, it didn’t last long. My only hope is that if things start to ‘unravel’ in the current way the world is run I have enough presence of mind to ‘head for the hills’ because since these hills are considered a backwater in a country that is perceived as the same I believe this location is about as safe as you can get.

Every year I take a certain percentage of my $$ & invest a little more in this ‘backup’ location. Plus hanging out on our patio there watching the sun go down over the rice paddies & bamboo groves w/a cold San Miguel & a fatty don’t suck if you know what I mean. Then we retire inside to watch satellite TV better than what we get here in Singapore. Do we have guns? Yes. Does anybody have guns back down on the farm in the old country ? Of course. You should see the funny looks the Skankster gets when he knocks down all the cans at the shooting arcade at New Years Carnival on Orchard Road & while collecting his teddy bear prize announces to the surrounding people. You know this is just a toy gun, in the Philippines I have a ‘real fire’ gun.

My questions is am I the only one of the people reading this that has done this type or preparation, am I all alone or is anybody else there with me so to speak.

[This message has been edited by skank (edited 19-01-2004).]

[Joseph27]

Whilst you’re probably crazy, what you say makes a great deal of sense.  We are on this conveyer belt of modernity constantly moving towards a situation that I strongly believe is not sustainable.  Sorry but this planet just cant support 6billion people living in free democratic countries eating sufficiently whilst driving the latest SUV – hell it cant support 2 billion people living in such a manner let alone 10 billion.  Cant happen, wont happen – oil will run out – food resources will dry up – don’t mean to be overly pessimistic but every year we continue to f*ck up the environment and then lament at all the so called ecological catastrophes taking place.  

We are responsible for it all and you think anyone wants to claim responsibility? Of course not – no we just keep on keeping on and pass the buck to everyone else and of course your typical politician relies on scientist who argue that the global warming is the only thing that prevents us from entering another ice age. Great mentality – there are alternatives – and are they are not nuclear – they’re just not coal or oil and hence not likely to keep the current elite so entrenched.  

We cannot support life on our current road map and no matter what, our fences will have to be built higher and more guns will be needed to protect us from the outside.  I won’t post the complete article but I think this link gives a fairly decent insight into the 21st Century and it’s not a pretty picture.  It’s simply about ‘how scarcity, crime, overpopulation, tribalism, and disease are rapidly destroying the social fabric of our planet’ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/foreign/anarchy.htm  .

Take some time and have a read

[rolling ball]

I think there are quite a few survivalist in the US but I'm not sure about the people around here.
Me, I've thought about having a self sufficient place to go to to survive a collapse of the civilization. But the thing is, there are too many unknowns when civilization collapse.
For example. the formation of gangs and mobs for self preservation. when they see your pretty place, they would try to take it away from you. Since you're only a few how do you think you can defend your property from say 100 people attacking at the same time?
What if the cause of the collapse of civilization is pollution? Your water might not be fit to drink. What if you run out of ammo for your guns? and so on and so forth.
So having a save haven might not guarantee your survival. people can take it away from you.
The only thing that they can't take away from you is your knowledge. Personally I'm more into having knowledge to survive than having equipment or place. Those are extras.
You cannot survive alone and having the specialized knowledge to survive makes you valuable to any group and that group will protect you from dangers.  
I believe that the most valuable knowledge someone can have in that situation is the knowledge to be able to rebuild a society from scratch. You already know some of the essential ones like, how to build a septic tank, irrigation, but there are many other basic knowledge that you need to know to build a small, sustainable community and that also takes planning and people.
Me, I just prepare by reading Survival books and other small interesting stuff. it is also handy if I survive a plane crash or stranded in a desert island. It's a good way to entertain myself and if the unthinkable really happens, I already have some knowledge to survive it.
At least now I know a person to go to if it really happens.  
Interesting topic, I haven't thought about that particular topic since the Y2K crap. Didn't believe in it, but the thing that concerned me was the potential mass hysteria which could've been self fulfiling.
Any time you want to talk about this topic again, let me know. It's usually fun for me to think of the what ifs.

By the way, if you want to learn stuff, watch those apocalyptic movies or stories. In general you won't see much use of the stuff, but the small tidbits might be useful to know

[This message has been edited by rolling ball (edited 19-01-2004).]

[Joseph27]

Just a follow up to that last post - the article was dismissed by many but the words still ring so true today 10 years later.  

It's like a car accident you see coming – we are watching the car hurtling towards the embankment and we cannot stop it – we just watch as the car etches closer and closer – the result is certain but just bloody painful to watch.  

[T2K]

Maybe I would have a different perspective if I had kids, but, since I don't...I think your actions are a bit extreme, Skank.  Which is not to say I think there is anything wrong with them, I just wouldn't go to that length myself.

WAY too many powerful people and organizations have WAY too much interest in "the system" as it is today to let it slide.  The 1929 crash was a big lesson and things changed after that.  Your dollars can't become worthless because then theirs will become worthless too.

Humanity will stagger on, it always does.
Oil will run out, and an alternative will arise.  Unpleasant events will happen in certain places as they have throughout human history, but a global breakdown of civilization is just not something I see happening.

The biggest threat of that was a global nuclear war, and that threat seems to have subsided.  I suppose a new version of the plague is possible, but then so is a big meteor hitting right in the middle of your remote cabin in the Philippines.

However, if you are going to do the survival thing right, it seems the weak point in your plan is how will you get from here to there, assuming some big event happens without warning.  Commercial air traffic to the Philippines may not exist.
Just a thought.

[This message has been edited by T2K (edited 19-01-2004).]

[skank]

Like I pointed out, if I have the presence of mind to pull out & get there in time. It's a big caveat. But the family stays there twice a year now for a couple monthes at a shot & the Skankster always comes back lean, mean & full of a mellow not swaggering self confidence.

He's doing what we used to do as kids back in the old country. Swimming, Fishing, Camping out by the river w/his cousins, helping feed the pigs, catching & fighting beetles, learning to ride a horse in a natural setting w/o adult supervision every nanosecond etc etc, . Here he starts turning into a video game playing DVD watching nerd so although I totally hate it when the little guy is gone I think its definitely WAY good for him overall.

Although it is indeed possible I'm not sayng we'll defintely have some great cataclysmic meltdown, I think it probably it will more lilely be a constantly widening gulf between the haves & have nots & a slow but steady decline in our 'way of life' w/the haves holding off everybody else at the point of a bayonet so to speak, so much so, that living back in our valley may eventually be more appealing than living in a '1st world' that slowly but inexorably marches towards some kind of bizarre real life mix of Blade Runner & Brazil

But maybe a perspective not apparent in my orginal post up top is it's a perfectly great place for me to go now. If I only could get the NET (closest connection is 15 miles away & dead slow) there but that could change anytime. We used to have no phone but now the world is blanketed w/cell phone siganals & we have a cell phone in a cradle attached to a large antenna  &we catch a signal no problem . Still no wireless data signal to bring in the NET yet.

Rolling Ball the point I'm also making is this place is an isolated mountain valley surrounded by some of the most rugged mountains in the Philippines the journey there from here is not so short. We are 10 hours at minimum from the nearest airport & that's leaving urban Manila at 3AM to aovid the traffic & driving straight through. There are already organized roving armed gangs & they are us & our neighbors so to speak. Nobody else is interested in the place because of the remotness which is fine w/me & I think it will always stay that way more or less.

[This message has been edited by skank (edited 20-01-2004).]

[Dr Opinion]

Wow... that's certainly food for thought... how much do you think the whole shazam has set you back?

I think I'd be more interested in Indonesia, just my personal preference.

Very interesting...  

[skank]

Less than the cost to build a friggin toilet here,(no BS!!)

Actually in the overall scheme of things not much at all. Probably we've spent in the neighborhood of around US$20-25K on the 'house'  & then another 15K buying up various pieces of land over the years . We're working on acquiring a 5 acre piece now that literally has a small river flowing through it. The lower reaches are flooded part of the year but produce a good rice crop & have tons of 'crawdads' & small fresh water fish during the wet season.

The reason I've chosen the Philippines, of course, is the wife is Filipina so if we 'jointly; buy then my name goes on the registered land titles. We've got the resources to follow through w/all this down in Baguio at office of land records so we are clearly the owners of records & cannot get screwed. Many of the poor locals do not nor ever will have the resources, time or perseverance to tread the long beaucratic path to 100% registered land ownership. We can spend over US$1K to follow through this process for a piece of land that cost only 3 times that & it also means several trips 5 hours away waiting in lines, passing 'tea' money to people to do their job etc but in the end we are rewarded with very secure ownership that is eventully recorded in the regional land office in Baguio. Up till now, as usual in Asia, the ones who have been adept a doing this have been the Chinese Filipino merchants who take land tax papers as collateral from poorer families on loans & then eventually do the legal steps & take control. At least we buy the land outright from a seller, instead of going through the money lending then taking of collateral when they can't pay it back process.

It's an ongoing project that has taken  5 years already but that way we invest just a little at a time. We ship things in from Singapore like ceiling fans, water pump etc  by sea. It's  never 'finished' but thats part of the fun of it too. You/re constantly thinking when you see something cool or useful, hey we could use that in the Peens & then work on acquiring it & putting in the next sea shipment.

By the way guys this is fun, intelligent troll free discourse, we need more nonpolitical threads over here, this forum functions very well. The political stuff while very interesting reminds me of what one of my most interesting Economics professors in grad school said one day about his subject; 'Mental Masturbation'. This proactive plan for an alternative & possible better life is much more fun for me too.

Like I say I don't feel like any kind of doomsday survivalist, don't patronize those types of publications or webistes, & have quietly incorporated this plan into my life for the last 5 years w/o really even telling many people about it other than to say I'm working on a 'retirement' home in the Peens.

& Dr O, time to head off for the pool, to meet my challenger, think he'll show? NOT!

[This message has been edited by skank (edited 20-01-2004).]

[Dr Opinion]

It's incredible that it's so cheap. Almost ubelievable...  my next question would have been, how did you handle the paper work, but it makes sense if your wife's from there...

Don't sweat the no-show.  

[GrassIsGreener]

Skank,
I have had the same thoughts wrt New Zealand, though your spot sounds better. I enjoyed your posts since I have felt for a while that I am simply bulding up kitt until the time is right for my departure from the rat race, though for somewhat different reasons.

BUt I agree with one of the posters in that your haven offers no guarantees. ANd those willing to seclude themselves, even for the best intentions, are often the ones least likely to defend an incursion since in the process they have given up so many material goods.

And when I think incursion, I am thnking more of corporate and govt incursions than armed militia, though I supposed they are out there as well.

My two cents is that is the world were to get "better" and convince you as such, the question is whether you would still consider the building of your retreat as where you were glad you passed your time on earth. If so, then you are in a place/state of mind I hope to achieve sometime soon. If not, then (and it doesn't sound like you), then you may in store for a terrible realiztion that in many places the world may actually be getting better.

But $25K? Right on!!

[skank]

New Zealand is the most pristine but friends I have who've gone to live there if they're outside the big cities eventually get bored by the insular rural Kiwi society; so yeah maybe the unruliness of the Peens is better for me. I always say it's the only 'romance' culture in Asia. If I'm in the province there during fiesta time, with the processions of the Virgin, the feasting & drinking & the shooting of guns in the air to me it's just like being in Latin America where I grew up as an 'expat' kid.  Same with young men & ladies flirting & promenading around the central plaza under the shadow of the Church at dusk any & every day in every plaza.

Yeah I do like it there, if I retired right now we'd have the 'country' house & I'd rent a house down on the beach around San Fernando de la Union, which has a pretty large population of retired expats (mostly Americans & Aussies; the Europeans seem to just visit but not stay)

You're on the beach & it's only a 90 minute drive(more or less staright up) up to the cool pine forests of Baguio above the clouds. San Fernando has a good medical school so good hospitals for retired folk, internet cafe's, lots of little beach resorts full of foreigners & decent restaurants, ATM's etc. A full on town. Then Baguio is a big college town, the vibes make it Philippines version of Ann Arbor or Gainesville or some big US college town. It is also home to a very happening music scene in the country with the most happening music scene in Asia, so Baguio has a lot of good young creative energy going around up there above the clouds. Over the years we've been going there, we used San Fernando as a base when we were just starting construction upcountry, I've already I've made a lot of US &Aussie buddies down at San Fernando who are already doing the retired thing. Goes w/o saying a large percentage of them have Filipina wives.

I could very easily float between the beach & our hidden mountain valley 3 hours away (leave one after breakfast & you reach the other end by lunch)

If the things do 'take a sh1te' I think we're set up in a pretty good spot. The only other ang-moh close by to us is a SQ pilot w/Filipina wife who has built something quite nice but inside the nearest town, not totally out in the province like us. But w/the number of Filipinos who go overseas to work (not just maids, more like teachers, engineers,et c)& send back $$ regularly there are a actually quite a few setups like ours around financed by overseas Filipino money. So  I actually had some very good models to follow when trying to set up a pretty self sufficient little enclave for ourselves.

If I had my choice & money & visa's weren't an issue I'd probably choose, Sunshine Coast, Noosa Heads North of Brisbane but hey that's really BIG $$$ & it ain't easy to get an Aussie immigrant visa if you're over 50 yrs old.

I own a house up on a ridge outside Washington, DC in the USA looking over across to another ridge where Camp David is. My rationale in buying that house was if the President of United States weekend home is close by property values won't be going down anytime soon. It's appreciated like crazy over the past 10 years but obviously if there is ever some kind of confligaration Just outside of DC, next to Camp David sure as heck wouldn't be the optimal place to be. So do I hold or cash in?

Who knows what the future brings but at least I know there's a truely safe place for the Mrs & Skankster & I to go to if things get just too bizarre. Plus for putting it all together has been a challenge that I have really loved.

Last time I was there during the last SARS crisis, sitting there on the patio watching the sun go down over our own fields I felt pretty darn good.

[This message has been edited by skank (edited 21-01-2004).]