Pre-Nuptial Agreements

[Ace]

I've just found out that the women, who wants to marry me wants a pre-nuptial agreement.

I don't believe in them myself, as its a sign of not fully committing to the relationship, and it's an easy way out, if the sh** hits the fan.

I'm a strong beleiver that anything can be sorted out and the easy way is not always the best.

I need to know what the general concensus is on Pre-Nups?

Yes, their all dependant on the situation, but what do you guys think?

[This message has been edited by Ace (edited 03-12-2002).]

[Ray Walston]

IMHO, the answer is as varied as the people who are contemplating getting married.  Don't look for a consensus.

Even with a pre-nup, I don't think you'd find it an easy way out.

At the risk of asking rude questions, can you characterize:

1.  Her vs your employment prospects and salaries;
2.  Her vs your pre-marriage assets;
3.  Do either of you have children (always a good reason for a prenup);
4.  Her vs your nationality and intentions regarding where you want to live.

[Snaffled]

Personal opinion would be ... Pre-nups mean that one or both parties are not 100% sure that the marriage will work.  If you enter into a marriage with that type of doubt, should one ask whether you should be getting married in the first place?

[Mo3]

They are good.  If someone is just after your money or they think you are after their's, you know straightaway the real deal.  They get things out in the open and help assess potentially sticky situations, so I don't think they're a sign of questionable love, but of some sign of thoughfulness in approaching a serious commitment.  That being said, clauses you don't like can be negotiated and, if you can't reach consensus, don't sign.  She can chose to marry you anyway, without the pre-nup.  
One interesting story is that a man who came from a socially prominent background, but no money, married a woman with little social standing, but lots of money.  Pre-nup essentially stipulated that each walked away with what they brought in and no more (no community property assessments).   A few years down the pike, the economy changed, her family lost all their money and his made more than hers would ever know.  They are still married, but boy does that contract inure to his benefit in a way that was not initially contemplated.  Good luck.

[Pointed Talk]

Hey Ace:

Your premise that pre-nups are a sign of not fully committing and an ‘easy’ way out is simply wrong. Given the prevalence of divorce (circa 50%?), the relevant question to ask yourself now is this: Would you rather negotiate a potential separation 1) when you are in love and can communicate or 2) when you’re trying to strangle each other and can only communicate through your respective lawyers? Moreover, I believe there are a number of valid reasons for a pre-nup, which may or may not apply in your case...e.g., kids from previous marriage, family business at stake, etc.

What seems important to me is that you and your loved one can COMMUNICATE about why she feels a need for a pre-nup. If you can’t do that, then there’s a red flag. But look on the bright side. Maybe your beloved is loaded and you didn’t even know it!

For sure, though, get yourself a lawyer, otherwise you might find yourself getting aced, Ace.

[Dr Opinion]

Let's break it down with a bit of logic.  

Either:

(a) You trust and love your spouse to be, in which case you have no fears that the marriage will fail, and you'll happily sign the pre-nup, either because it's makes her happy, or simply because it's a great opportunity for you guys to discuss finances and difficult situations and learn more about each other.

Or...

(b) You don't trust her, in which case you both *definitely* need a pre-nup, because it will make it much less painful and save oodles on lawyer fees.  

[antoine]

I have rather unpopular views on this as well, but at least they are sincere, and honest, as usual....

A request for a pre-nup says a lot about:

1. What they think about you...clearly you are not much of a prospect... , or they would get married and spring for "half" then, and half when they leave

2. Who you select from

3.  Who is available for selection

4. The absence of any type of love(when existent, a very selfless and giving thing), in the relationship.

5. How much problems you are likely to have, later..

6. Whether there is hope in the relationship...

7. Just a few of the situational reasons for one.....

You should know that the persons that you see first are always followed by others and then others, and others....somewhere along the line there will be one that one that does not want one...though that it is no gurantee, that the reason you fear a pre-nup, is not present in that, but at least it will not be an instant yoke.

If he or she wants a pre-nup...froget it.
Like someone advised...do not go for the consensus of others on this, board....that is way too personal, to take a Gallup poll.

You need to have clear reasons for avoiding it, or going into it, and God help you if you do.

I would advise that you forget anyone who mentions it...in this world you can get all that you want without one, not that I am advising it...

I am clearly pointing out what you already know...and you may very well need to know that you do not have much difference whether there is one or not...it just so happens that your fairy godmother is giving you the chance of a lifetime to pass up this looming grief, and early warning to run for it...

I think though that if you want one too, then you are good for each other...go ahead...

Pre-nups should marry pre-nups, and leave ordinary love-possible people to each other, that way, less lives are damaged.

In this world they would seem to characterise those who have an acquisition scheme, while letting none go.
And are serial pre-nuptials, without end.

In the perfect scheme of things, every morning you should get up with the option to walk away, and choose rather to stay...

A pre-nup cannot provide that.

[Ace]

Some great comments folks!!!!

You're right in saying that pre-nups should marry pre-nups, as you both need to be comfitable with the agreement.

Kids and Money.
Money really isn't a concern, I work my a*se off to live comfitably and she usually has her parents to suppot her if she needs it (which she usually does!). So we are both really on par, with each other on that.

Kids is another story, I have a one, she doesn't. I have to pay maintenance, she doesn't. I question myself sometimes if she has really accepted Jr, but she's great with her and she's a Kindy teacher, so I know she loves kids.

A couple of days ago, I was looking at engagement rings, now she brings this up and eveything has changed! I went through a divorce about 5-6 yrs ago, so I know about the property breakup. I just want to make sure the same thing doesn't happen again.

So, I suppose that pre-Nups are (as has already been said) a sign that one doesn't trust the other.

Or am I just going crazy?

[Dr Opinion]

It's not really a matter of trust, just being practical about real life, and using common sense.... Divorce happens, sometimes despite the best efforts of one or other parties.

Avoiding this fact is not a solution...

Claiming you don't want a prenup becuase you don't want to think about divorce is like a builder refusing a safety helmet because he doesn't like to think about things falling on his head...  

[antoine]

"...on the other hand, it may simply be better to not have a pre-nup or not to be in a relationship, in which, you need one...

Like the Dr. OP says there are no guarantees anywhere, but it must be more comfortable, getting into a relationship, which does not need a pre-nup...than getting into one, which has so far caused you to come to a notice board...for ideas....not that it is bad...but my, these are signs...that are well worth considering...

Look on it this way...can?...it has not started yet, and you are already scurrying around to find a reason to have her....helloooooo...

You sought opinions. because it does not sit pretty with you......
It may still not sit pretty with you...after all the counselllng in the world...
Perhaps she, really is not the one....

Here is a test, draw her attention to this discussion, and guage her reaction....
If she gets upset, mildly, walk away...
If she starts trhowing things, looks, words, the sofa, beat it...

Here is my final input, find a partner from a culture that is not of that pre-nup/USA orientation, and love her like crazy....and treat her good.

Same woman....  

Do not overlook Dr. OP advice above this, though if you finally decide that you are taking on the dangers of that construction site...you will need a helmet, from falling desks and anvils, and the wrecking ball of divorce.

You admit one divorce...(they happen)before...whatever...there is no way to say that this is not number two, long before it happens.

I still think, she does not have a very high opinion of you...despite what you think, she thinks....

There is NO commitment in a prenup...unless it is a commitment not to commit...one merely provides a way out, before going in...
I means one is planning certainly on getting out...

Take care of what SHE sets your mind upon, SHE will certainly have it...already

All the best.

[This message has been edited by antoine (edited 05-12-2002).]

[Apples]

To avoid having to make this decision, I'd avoid buying that engagement ring.  Give it another year.  See what she and you think then.

BTW, Her parents may be the ones advising her on the pre-nup.  They may be wealthy and don't want to think of you ending up with all their money should they pop-their-clogs before you divorce her!

[antoine]

Good observation Apples....you are probably very right on that...still augurs ill...for the groom to be...

[Joseph27]

It makes perfect sense to protect yourself when you enter into a cohabitation agreement that may end up costing you half of your assets plus a big percentage of wage.  

It is just common sense to want to protect yourself - after all as an individual you are the most special important person in the world - everything exists to serve you.  So in this case - your future wife (her parents) want to protect their asse(t)s because an individual could never fully commit to making another person content.  Sure you maybe happy now but just wait until you grow tired of each other.

Sorry I couldnt help but to write the above tongue in cheek - because i believe the contracts are rubbish - if you are so much in love and want to spend forever growing together then do so without a safety harness.  Things will go wrong sometimes but use everyday to grow together - to build a future.  If you have a pre nuptial and are worried about the other person intention - DONT GET MARRIED.  Live with them - shag them everyday - and in 2 or 3 years kick them out without a penny - but why bother to marry if you go into the marriage saying well if she turns into a b*tch then at least i keep my cash...  great concept

[Dr Opinion]

Another consideration: For thousands of years, marriage was considered to be a secular transaction, one grounded ultimately in the fiscal and other practicalities of child-rearing, the inevitable consequences of adolescence without contraception.   Doweries, rings, business and  political alliances have routinely been the trappings of marriage. Marriage is a transaction ultimately rooted in practicality.

Early Christians took to "blessing" their marriage, in the same way that many still might get a new house blessed, for example. Eventually, the transaction was taken to be an entirely religious one, and finally, under the influence of Hollywood and French fairytale writers, the transaction has been taken to be entirely romantic.  

This total disregard for the simple practicality of our ancient forbears is why we have the mess of divorce that we have today... marriage isn't like Hollywood, it's not a fairytale, and it carries risks, and provides practical benefits. Be always loving, feel wildly passionate, and enjoy the thrill of romance, but if you've got even a tiny bit of sense, be practical too.  

[koolkat]

I think a pre-nup is a very good idea. A pre-nup not only protects assets but it can also protect you from future debt.
If in the future one of you gets into serious debt, the other is protected from it by the pre-nup. If the marriage is doing very well, the pre-nup is a way to protect assets from creditors by transferring them to the debt-less spouse.
Pre-nups get lots of bad pr but i think it is very misunderstood. A pre-nup does not mean that you have misgivings about commitment.  It is just a means of protecting assets either within the marriage or if it ends.  I think a lot of the bad press stems from the use of pre-nups as a means to protect individual assets with the thought of a future divorce.
But not enough has been said about using pre-nups as a means to protect assets within a marriage. Suggest that you speak to your lawyer and find out more about pre-nups before your get all hot and bothered about it.
Also, given that you were once divorced, I should think that you would be glad to have a pre-nup to protect remaining assets.