A question to fellow debators

[Joseph27]

With an ongoing civil war in Afghanistan, and US troops dying almost daily in Iraq, I pose this question to Manc Man and Imagine and other backers of war in Iraq…..

Before the war you argued that the US was justified in waging this action to protect the Iraqi people, you argued that WMDs were an issue, you argued that regime change was a justifiable tool of foreign policy – and in one posting when I said this war couldn’t be won, someone wrote that it already was won – (question) do you feel that your prior position was based on a false assumption that the US had the Iraqi’s people best interests at heart or did you just want Hussein out of power no matter what the costs?  

It is sad seeing the paper everyday – more people killed in Iraq, and the friendly US who were seen as the hero’s who helped reconstruct post war Germany and Japan, are now seen as the aggressive occupying army.  I say again – this war cannot be won.  You don't fight violence by killing people.  

I saw a really lame program yesterday morning about angels, and though it was entirely sickening, (it was on for less then 2minutes) there was one comment that was worth remembering.

‘Our job isn't to stop the hate overnight – it is to start the healing’.  

[Imagine]

Yes, I still believe that Hussein out of power is in the interest of the Iraqi people.

And I guess the war is won, but not yet over.
What do you do if people shoot at you? Stick out your tongue?
(ooops sorry, it is offcourse the US army that shoots first)

Now I have a question in return.
Your (and others) statement that it was all about the oil.
Have you seen USA starting to pump allready?

Actually what do you want to hear me say: "I was wrong and we should have left the Iraqi people in the hands of monster Saddam Hussein?"
And don't forget... during Saddam's time people died daily also.

Anyway, there is still this big unanswered question for those who oppose the war.
"What is your alternative?"

Unfortunately I have not seen any of you answering this question.
Basically still you are not doing anything... you do not support US and you also do not support Hussein.

The only thing you do support is your own blahblahblahblah 50,000 words articles.
Maybe one day, when you have a solution for the problem:
A) Hussein out of power
B) USA not involved in the war
C) Give back freedom to the Iraqi's

You can let me know, so we can continue the discussion.

[Protagonist]

Imagine, the first thing the US troops did when they entered Iraq was to secure the oilfields. The US is planning on pumping 6.5 million barrels of oil a day.

Dick Cheney's Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown and Root has been awarded multi-million dollar contracts for the reconstruction work.

The main problems are the ongoing terrorist attacks on pipelines which are disrupting the reconstruction and the hundreds of thousands of unexploded munitions dropped by the US in the early days of the war.

So yes, the US is pumping oil as much as it can already.

[Publius]

Since before the war I argued that the US was correct whether or not there ever were any weapons of mass destruction found. I believed this (and still believe this) regardless of the sincerity of GWB's intentions -which are highly dubious in my view. The goal of eradicating a genocidal meglomanic who butchered thousands of Kurds, Shia and his own Sunni minority was a noble end. I would like to see Robert Mugabe meet a similar fate.

The war is over and now the US has to deal with the consequences. It is clear that the Bush administration was (and remains) completely unprepared to govern Iraq. This was a monumental failure and typical of many leaders who start wars without knowing how to end them. Part of the reason for this folly may be that Bush was too fixated on Iraqi oil reserves or simply unprepared. Either way, the US ought to either 'get out' or send in enough troops to secure the peace while installing a new regime. One estimate said that as many as another 200,000 troops would be necessary to achieve this.

Whatever happens, you can be sure that the status quo will change rapidly by December. Bush's year-long re-election campaign will collapse if American soldiers keep getting killed every day. The Democrats will cut him apart.

[Joseph27]

With mounting pressure on Iran the US could create the situation to make a war more tenable to the American public thereby negating the ill effects of a rising body count in Iraq.  Everyone would focus on how Iran is about to destroy the world and how we must make them pay for September 11.  

[Imagine]

Joseph,

Is it really nessecary to start this topic all over again?
It has been beat to death.

I suggest you start surfing the internet again, untill you find another 10,000 word topic, which you then can copy & paste on this board.

See, your topic abt Maria was such a good one, and I started to think you actually had a life outside this Iraq-thing.

Talking Point needs a new (not yet discussed) topic anyway.

The honors are yours.  

[Joseph27]

Yes I certainly concur - and I have tried to change direction - see Mary but this post was based more on boredom.

[Bruno]

Does anyone know what the UN resolutions called for? It wasn't for Blix to find the WMD, but for Saddam to provide evidence of what he had done with the WMD known to be in his country prior to 1998. And he didn't, which left everyone including Blix, France, Russia as well as the US and others to believe he still had them.

Only an imbecile of the highest order would now cry, ah ha, Iraq was clean and those bloody Yanks were lying, as if this now shows that the liberation of 20 million people from tyranny was somehow fraudulent.

But those Americans don't care about liberation, only about self interest, you say? It's true. Bush said it himself. Turning Iraq into a moderate and modern Muslim state will, he hopes, trigger the transformation of the Middle East and reduce terrorism. The US benefits but so does everyone else except, of course, those petty small minded people who don't like the US and don't like the fact that they were wrong about Afghanistan, wrong about Iraq and inevitably wrong about anything that happens in the future.

[pacifist]

The US benefits but so does everyone else except, of course, those petty small minded people who don't like the US and don't like the fact that they were wrong about Afghanistan, wrong about Iraq and inevitably wrong about anything that happens in the future.

So now all those who don't like the US are "petty small minded people"? That assertion would be bloody hilarious, if many (including myself) of those who don't like the US were not friends or relatives of people killed by US soldiers, mercenaries paid by US, US terrorism, or dictators set up by the US.

Get a life. Stop listening to the propaganda.

[Protagonist]

I agree

Bruno, all you're doing is reinforcing our belief that Americans are narrow-minded and arrogant when it comes to their country / administration's policies, and when faced with an opposing opinion, they go into attack mode.

Save it for a thread that means something. This board is dead.

[No Kidding]

Hey Bruno

Sorry to disappoint you but the US does seem to create more problems than it is able to solve.

In fact, the only US foreign policy seems to be to simply keep switching back and forth between creating more new problems and messing up the older problems that it created earlier. Middle-east crisis being the foremost example of such ****ling old problems.

I am sure it keeps a lot of people occupied especially in politics, media, arms dealers and international businessmen, just to name a few. But then why does it come as a surprise that half the world hates the US policies and actions?

[This message has been edited by No Kidding (edited 09-07-2003).]

[Publius]

All of you simply serve to establish the veracity of Bruno's point about being small-minded. Because you disagree with him, you simply assume that he is American (which he's not -Bruno is German).

It is too bad that any attempt at serious analysis of US foreign policy always degenerates into superficial mud-slinging against the US and its defenders. The fact that every thread criticizing the US on this message board is (surprise) started by its critics betrays an explicit bias.

The total ignorance of history and context here is astounding.

[Manc Man]

Oh Pacifist

Bruno said

<<those petty small minded people who don't like the US>>

Which is  different from saying

<<those who don't like the US are petty small minded people>>

surprised a self proclaimed genius such as yourself could make such a simple blunder....

mm