AA pilot arrested in Sao Paolo

[nualum]

The allegation that Arab nations have no interest in solving the problem is also crap. I have referred more than once in this thread to the Saudi peace plan which has been formally agreed to by all nations in the Arab League.

Bruno and the rest of the pro-Israeli claque either completely ignore its existence or claim it is not a serious proposal--in much the same way as Israel denied that the Palestinians had made a counter-proposal at Taba.

The real game in town is "blame the other guy." Both Israel and the Palestinians play this game. But Israel is by far the more successful at convincing its public and much of the Western media that Arafat and the Palestinians are solely to blame for everything.

[Publius]

GIG,

I took our other discussion in good spirits. I am suffering from a slight case of "message board fatigue," and I think I'll leave it to others to evaluate some of your proposals. They are thoughtful though.

I will say that the contours of Oslo II (and some of the agreements at Taba) were the closest real-life solutions to this conflict. Both were the only peace plans with legs and, in my view, neither is as dead as many believe. A couple of things should be clear though: Israel is never going to trust the UN with any of its security for a myriad of historical reasons. Palestinians will never receive more than a symbolic presence in Jerusalem. But symbols matter alot in the Middle East and Jerusalem will surely be the Palestinian "capital" and house its head of state -just not much more. Believe it or not, this is what the majority of Palestinians living in East Jerusalem desire as well.  

It is certainly true that Intifada II dried up the Israeli left, elected Sharon, and hardened the Israeli electorate against the kind of changes proposed by Barak. Palestinians today have moved in the same direction because of Israeli actions in the WB and Gaza. But this will not be the end of peace negotiations. Bill Clinton's big mistake (note Clinton, not Arafat) was that he did not shore up Arab support for any agreement (and for Yasser Arafat) BEFORE the Camp David meetings were held. Arafat himself said if he had signed that document he would have been gunned down like Rabin. And he would have been right. But Arafat should have signed it anyway. That's what statesmen do.

After the collapse of the Camp David talks in 2000 the US Congress wanted to cut financial support for Egypt because of how Mubarak left Arafat twisting in the wind.    

The reality is that many Arab states would not have supported ANY agreement in 2000, but the most important Arab states in the region would likely do so today (and with much less resistance than would have greeted any accords in 2000) for a number of reasons. Chief among these is the renewed fear of the US in the region as it overwhelmed the domestic value that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has given Arab dictators for more than half a century.

A solution will come easily if the will is present. The vast majority of Palestinians and Israelis display this will, but the PA will not take the necessary risks without wide public support from the Arab world. Just as importantly, they need support from Israel. Unfortunately, the vicious cycle that we are all aware of makes it impossible for Israeli leaders to idly sit back while buses and cafes are blown up. But they could do ALOT more.

In my view, Sharon wants a unilateral conclusion to this conflict.

Everything depends on the United States.

Nualum

It was never claimed (or even inferred) that "all" Palestinian teenage males died throwing molotov cocktails. But some did. Many others died doing even worse things. And many others were just innocent teens who died wrongful deaths.

[This message has been edited by Publius (edited 05-03-2004).]

[PhilM]

Been away from this thread for a couple of days and have been catching up. One of Bruno’s pearls of wisdom caught my attention: -

“It's true many innocent Palestinians have been killed too, but it's obvious to anyone with a little reasoning ability that the deaths would be zero if the Palestinians would talk rather than fight.”

Bruno has the thought ever entered your head that if Israel had not occupied Palestinian land, built and continued to build illegal settlements on Palestinian land, destroyed Palestinian homes on the grounds they may have harboured terrorists, attacked Palestine from the air with Jets and Helicopters and from the ground with tanks, built an illegal wall largely on Palestinian land denying Palestinians access to their fields, schools, places of worship, relatives etc. and finally made and continued to make military incursions into Palestine whenever it suits, Palestinians might not become suicide bombers or Molotov cocktail throwers?

Bruno if a group of people broke into your house, shot your sons, beat up your wife and daughters, threw you out and moved into your house would you quietly talk to them about it? Of course not you would fight back in any way you could to right the injustices done to you and your family.

As I have said many time before I do not support Palestinian suicide bombers, Molotov cocktail throwers, etc. You on the other hand give me the strong impression you are fully in support of ongoing occupation of Palestinian land, fully support illegal settlements, fully support indiscriminate air and ground attacks on Palestine, fully support the building of an illegal wall on Palestinian territory. Finally you give me the very strong impression not only do you not regret the death of Palestinians in this ongoing war, you in fact revel in it.

As I and others said until the racists and bigots like yourself can realise killing is wrong no matter which side carries it out and that there is also political wrong on both sides there will never be peace in the Middle East.

Grass is Greener – A couple of interesting posts, you make it clear where your heart lies, but then go on to recognise there is right and wrong on both sides of this issue. Whilst others may not agree with all your points they are worthy of consideration and rational reply. Unfortunately Bruno would appear to have immediately targeted you as being Anti-Israeli to his way of thinking hence the responses you have got to date from him.

Imagine I am still waiting for you to return and justify the link you gave us to that somewhat bogus site.

[Imagine]

PhilM,

I dont have to justify anything.
I made it perfectly clear that the site "gives an interesting view on the Israeli position in this conflict"

But the moment I posted the link, I knew already you would twist this into "Imagine's position in this conflict"

[Bruno]

Phil, a self-described real stickler for the finer points of history, has conveniently ignored the wars that led to the occupation. And of course houses aren;t merely destroyed on the ``grounds'' they belong to terrorists but, NEWSFLASH, they often do belong to them.

And Nualum, of course Israel didn't offer everything at Taba. But they made an offer and a hugely generous one to rescue the floundering Oslo process. The Palestinians are either the worst negotiators that ever walked the planet or they weren't interested in a negotiated settlement. Take your pick.

Anyway, I'm bored of this topic. It's the same arguments and the same people. No more from me.

[PhilM]

Imagine – you are correct when you write, “I don’t have to justify anything” Problem is when you do not want to justify your posts they are left with no real credibility. You go on to write “I made it perfectly clear that the site "gives an interesting view on the Israeli position in this conflict" Well lets take a look at who gives this “interesting view” here is their own description of their web site: -
http://www.jewishinternetassociation.org/

This is the home page of the Jewish Internet Association, an IRS recognized 501(c)(3) tax-exempt, non-profit California corporation. JIA is dedicated to the educational purpose of providing truthful, positive information to combat antisemitism and anti-Israel activity on the Internet.

Read the following article where one of the contributors wants action taken to limit Muslim “Breeding”!
http://www.jewishinternetassociation.org/articles/goodtree_26nov03a.html

Here are three suggestions from the site as to how to deal with the current Middle East crisis. Incidentally when the writer puts “Homeland he means the whole of Palestine as well: -

1. Declare a total all-out war against the enemy, hit all targets, military, political, economic, and destroy their infrastructure. Maximize enemy casualties - including civilian - with the intent purpose of reducing the enemy population drastically and facilitating the elimination of it from your homeland. Guarantee peace by eliminating the enemy's ability to wage war, and greatly reducing the enemies will to wage war. Reunite your ancient homeland under your exclusive control, declare victory, peace, and praise G-D.

2. Declare a total all-out war against the enemy's military, hit all targets, including their political and military command-and-control centers, and military leader's residences. Eliminate enemy military actions against your population and facilitate the evacuation of the enemy's occupying population from your homeland. Reunite your ancient homeland under your exclusive control, declare victory, peace, and praise G-D.

3. Declare a total all-out war against the enemy's leadership. Eliminate them wherever they can be found. Destroy the enemy's military infrastructure and reduce the occupying enemy to a servile population. Facilitate the evacuation of most of the enemy population and incorporate the rest into your population. Reunite your ancient homeland under your exclusive control, declare victory, peace, and praise G-D.

Imagine I am not surprised you do not wish to justify your posting of a site that includes the quoted writings and others equally despicable!

Bruno most of the land occupied by Israel was taken during the six day war – a war Israel started. Do you always get bored when the majority of the posters do not wish to endorse your viewpoint?

[Imagine]

PhilM,

I was just about to cut and paste some of your wise words.

However, I didn't do it because some nut-case might ask me to justify the crap you wrote.

[Dr Opinion]

> "...Even China, with its expansionist ways, realized the folly of it’s ‘conquest through population’ policy..."

Nice link Phil.

Well-read people tend to be cosmopolitan. So, by definition, religious extremists are generally ignorant people. "Beth Goodtree", "a frequent columnist on Arutz Sheva and Israel Insider" is no exception.

China has never been expansionist -- "someone" needs to read a book -- and has never advocated expansion through population growth. How ignorant.  

[Imagine]

Dr O,

The people of Tibet disagree on that statement. Or at least the 83% who were not killed.

And since we are talking "occupied territories"... when is China planning to return this one to it's rightful citizens?