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ExpatSingapore Message Board 14 February 2012, 4:57:42 am *
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Author Topic: Democracy and Freedom  (Read 541 times)
PhilM
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« on: 09 June 2004, 15:42:00 pm »

Our political leaders are talking about bringing Freedom and Democracy to the Middle East, Blair in particular to the whole world. To hear Bush and Blair speak you could be forgiven for thinking the words Freedom and Democracy mean the same thing. We have debated the definition of Democracy before; but what is Freedom?

A dictionary definition is: -
1.The condition of being free of  restraints.

2. Liberty of the person from slavery, detention, or oppression.

3.   
a. Political independence.
b. Exemption from the arbitrary exercise of authority in the performance of a specific action; civil liberty: freedom of assembly.

4. Exemption from an unpleasant or onerous condition: freedom from want.

5. The capacity to exercise choice; free will: We have the freedom to do as we please all afternoon.

6. Ease or facility of movement: loose sports clothing, giving the wearer freedom.

7. Frankness or boldness; lack of modesty or reserve: the new freedom in movies and novels.

8.   
a. The right to unrestricted use; full access: was given the freedom of their research facilities.
b. The right of enjoying all of the privileges of membership or citizenship: the freedom of the city.

9. A right or the power to engage in certain actions without control or interference: “the seductive freedoms and excesses of the picaresque form” (John W. Aldridge).

To borrow from Rose Wilder Lane, freedom is control of self. Most of us have a very stylized view of freedom yet few of us really live it as true freedom means total responsibility for one’s every personal act – physical, political, economic and even spiritual

In reality most of us do not want that total freedom for either ourselves or for others so we conveniently transfer it elsewhere. In the West we transfer most to our Democratic form of Government, which conveniently takes over much of the responsibility from us. Spiritual responsibility we largely transfer to Religious organisations. By organising ourselves into a Democratic Society in fact we voluntarily give up much of our beloved freedom to the state who enacts laws, bylaws, taxes, rules and regulations which we ignore at our peril. Look at that definition again and we do give up a lot of most of those definitions of freedom.

Other societies have given up a degree of their freedom but in a different manner to Democratic Societies. The Middle East gives up most control to their Religion; which is why their leaders are largely governed in decision-making by religious constraints. In reality all forms of Government are aware of most people’s willingness to let others make decisions for them. All forms of leadership Democratic or other put in place rules and regulations for people to live by plus tax and penal systems.

Many might argue that because in a Democracy we can vote the incumbents out every few years we are “freer” than a Middle East Country run by a single party system or ruling family. but are we?Remember in Democracies we vote, in other forms of leadership the people as a mass tend to overthrow their leaders or "convince" them to depart when they abuse the elements of freedom given up to them.

One definition of freedom is the ownership of one’s body, so anyone who is not a slave or imprisoned could be stated to be free.  Even unreasonable restrictions cannot deny us freedom for as Satre said – he was most aware of his freedom during Nazi occupation of France because of all the restrictions. These made him more aware he had the choice to break them even if he would pay a price for doing so. In the West you can now be imprisoned without trial so are we truly free?

Consider if we have that freedom and are willing to give it up to some form of Government or other leadership, it must be our decision as to how we do so. Simply because the West feels “free” living in a Democracy does not mean a Arab or Farsi feels less “free” under the system he lives with.

I feel putting the two words Freedom and Democracy into a single sentence when referring to the Middle East is at best an oxymoron. State and Church are clearly separated in Democracies not so in the Middle East, where freedom to live by the tenants of the Koran is the most important freedom they consider they have. If we impose a Western style of Democracy on the Middle East I would argue many in that region would feel we were restricting their freedom, as it would totally affect their current way of life.

My agreement is total in the world working to do away with murderous dictators and tyrants in any society; however once we have assisted the people to do so we must step back and let them decide what social system they decide to give up part of their freedom to. To think we can impose Western Democracy on every race, religion and creed is sheer arrogance with a very strong underlying political and economic agenda. A quote to finish on:-

“What is freedom? Freedom is the right to choose, the right to create for yourself the alternatives of choice. Without the possibility of choice, and the exercise of choice a man is not a man, but a member, an instrument, a thing” – Archibald MacLeish.


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« on: 09 June 2004, 15:42:00 pm »



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« Reply #1 on: 09 June 2004, 22:07:00 pm »

 
quote:
Many might argue that because in a Democracy we can vote the incumbents out every few years we are “freer” than a Middle East Country run by a single party system or ruling family. but are we?Remember in Democracies we vote, in other forms of leadership the people as a mass tend to overthrow their leaders or "convince" them to depart when they abuse the elements of freedom given up to them.

Interesting observation.  Logically, one has to conclude two things:

(1) the label "democracy" does not guarantee freedom -- even in nominally democratic countries, the powers that be can and do (through the police and military) limit individual freedom; and

(2) the label "dictatorship" does not imply the absence of a check on government (at least in the form of popular revolution).

Setting aside labels, the deciding factor as to whether democracy works would seem to be the culture of both leaders and led -- do the leaders respect the aspirations of the people and voluntarily limit their own power, or do they do the opposite?  Similarly, do the people tend to demand freedom, or do they willingly relinquish it?  

If societal freedom is a cultural issue, then as Phil says, it doesn't make much sense to impose democracy militarily, since it is only going to take root if  the cultural prerequisites are in place.  On the other hand, I see no reason why any free-thinking individual has to respect a culture (be it their own or someone else's) that denies individual freedoms, and if he or she chooses to elect a government that, in turn, refuses to trade or do business with politically repressive countries, then so be it.  

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Imagine
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« Reply #2 on: 09 June 2004, 22:15:00 pm »

Refer to the post of Dr O. of 15.04.04 called "What is Freedom?"

PhilM, suffering from short-time memory lapse?

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PhilM
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« Reply #3 on: 10 June 2004, 9:14:00 am »

No Imagine I did not forget for I contributed to that thread. That thread was a discussion on freedom discussed very much from a Western viewpoint. The purpose of my thread is to show/discuss the fact that different societies define freedom in different ways plus to show how we voluntarily give up that freedom in very different ways.

Imagine of late it seems you are simply reading others posts waiting for the opportunity to jump in with a smartass comment. Humour is good; however how about exercising the grey matter a little to post something cognisant to the discussion for a change?

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Imagine
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« Reply #4 on: 11 June 2004, 1:47:00 am »

PhilM,

And get dragged into the same old discussion about the same old topic by the same old people with the same old result again?

Nope, thanks.

Perhaps you should put your grey mass to work one day and start a tread here other than Iraq, Israel, Bush, Blair, War, Oil etc etc

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« Reply #5 on: 11 June 2004, 9:05:00 am »

I have to admit, Im also a bit weary of the good 'ole "America Sucks" post -- or its slightly more sophisticated variant: "Bush is a puppet to the international (Jewish) oil conspiracy who enjoys burning babies."  That said, I didn't perceive the original post to be anything of the sort.  It was well thought out and, whether one agreed with it or not, well-argued.

If the other discussion *** on this site can have fifty-post diatribes over how cheating men should be arrested and spanked, then surely we can have an itsy-bitsy discussion here regarding the role of democracy in modern society.

Or maybe I'm expecting too much.    

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PhilM
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« Reply #6 on: 11 June 2004, 9:25:00 am »

Imagine You set yourself up so well it is almost a pity to point out the futility of your closing comment:-
http://www.expatsingapore.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000854.html
http://www.expatsingapore.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000772.html
http://www.expatsingapore.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000372.html
http://www.expatsingapore.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000655.html


The last discussion post initiated by you was in July last year, others have been merely cut and pastes. So in reality perhaps it is you who needs to exercise your grey matter a little more; however that may be hoping for too much for there is that old Dutch proverb which says “You can't hatch chickens from fried eggs”.

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Imagine
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« Reply #7 on: 11 June 2004, 14:56:00 pm »

PhilM,

"You can't hatch chickens from fried eggs" is not an old Dutch saying- too bad.

This one is however:
"You can't learn an old dog new tricks"

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PhilM
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« Reply #8 on: 11 June 2004, 16:35:00 pm »

Imagine – Do you set yourself up on purpose?
http://www.famous-quotations.com/asp/proverbs.asp?ID=Dutch+Proverb

Have a good weekend.

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Imagine
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« Reply #9 on: 11 June 2004, 21:03:00 pm »

So PhilM,

Because some internet website, made in US, says it is Dutch... so it must be.

And because I am from Holland, and have never heard or read about this old Dutch Proverb... I am wrong.

This one is for you:
"Self-esteem and self-contempt have specific odors; they can be smelled. "
Eric Hoffer

[This message has been edited by Imagine (edited 11-06-2004).]

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