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Author Topic: 1911 - 2004  (Read 2377 times)
Reason

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« Reply #15 on: 06 June 2004, 20:16:00 pm »

tiare,

I don't assume that all who dislike Reagan don't know the whole story, but I do believe that the American right gets portrayed more harshly than the American left. Media bias is real and measurable. There are groups that measure the bias by looking at the way news is reported by major news outlets. One such report documents that the stigmatizing label 'conservative' is much more likely to be used than the equally stigmatizing label 'liberal.' The 90% Democratic number comes from a poll of journalists that was actually conducted. I agree that there are agendas on both sides, but the press is 90% left.

Example: How many of the posters on this site knew (before I stated it) that the rich in America fund a higher percentage of the government under Bush than under Clinton? Bush made the U.S. tax code more progressive, but the only thing that resonates with the media is "tax cuts for the rich."

I don't think that media bias is nearly as conspiratorial as suggesting that Bush knew that WMD did not exist in Iraq.

[This message has been edited by Reason (edited 06-06-2004).]

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« Reply #15 on: 06 June 2004, 20:16:00 pm »



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tiare maori
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« Reply #16 on: 06 June 2004, 20:24:00 pm »

Absolutely nothing Flippy.  I didn't miss the point of your message.  You were saying it was cold-hearted to make negative comments about Reagan in light of the fact that he died recently.  My message made the point that, given the forum, it was entirely appropriate to make those comments.  You then focused on my reference to free speech (missing the point of my post) and telling me I had missed your point.  There is no question here of who missed whose point.  
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Reason

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« Reply #17 on: 06 June 2004, 20:41:00 pm »

I find it ironic that somebody would make a claim of condecension and in the same breath boast about rarely missing the point.
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tiare maori
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« Reply #18 on: 06 June 2004, 22:09:00 pm »

Why Reason?  The first point was fact (and if Flippy actually read my posts she would see that I haven't "missed" any of her points - I understand clearly what she is saying, I have just countered with a new argument that she doesn't appear to want to address).  However, in retrospect, I realize that Flippy may not have been condescending when she said I missed the point AGAIN.  Even though she has repeatedly (on other threads) failed to respond to the key arguments made by myself (and others) and, indeed, did the same thing this time (by focusing on her proud defense of free speech instead of the fact that this is a talking point forum designed to gather different view points on all topics).  I should have said that she either does so deliberately, which is misleading, deceptive and dismissive, or unintentionally, which is just plain stupid.  This is a poster who comments that it is childish and "such a shame" that people resort to personal attacks when someone referred to a STATEMENT made by her fellow right wing activist, nikki m, as being ignorant (as it was not based in fact), but feels that it is OK to label a PERSON cold-hearted and crass simply because they post a differing opinion on Reagan in response to your original post (because he died yesterday) - even though such responses are the basic nature of the forum on which you posted the original tribute and the presidency was actually what was being commented on.  I am certainly not going to allow someone like her suggest that I repeatedly am not able to make out the point of what she is saying.  Now, if nikki m made that statement, I would probably have to agree, because I really struggle to understand what that woman is trying to say much of the time!  
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Reason

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« Reply #19 on: 06 June 2004, 22:35:00 pm »

I'll leave all of that discussion up to you and Flippy. Don't take my post to mean that I want to get involved in that argument.

But, do you not see any irony in that sentence? The statement that you rarely miss a point is a bit condescending isn't it?

I just think that the sentence by itself passes the irony smell test. Forget about the context and look at it on its own for a minute. It's funny. Have a laugh.

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rolling ball
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« Reply #20 on: 06 June 2004, 22:47:00 pm »

Apparently your bait caught some fish Reason....
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If you want to hire someone you want him to have all these 3 qualities: Smart, Motivated and Ethical. If he lacks ethics, you really don't want him to be smart and motivated.
Flippy

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« Reply #21 on: 06 June 2004, 23:17:00 pm »

Tiare –

OK, we do indeed have a misunderstanding between us. Upon re-reading the posts we both put up, I think we both actually do understand each other’s points and we simply disagree.

You said: Flippy, sorry, but Reason posted his post on this message board where you, of all people, know there are people posting that have very different views of the world than yours (and nikki m's and Reason's). You cannot put a post praising the man without expecting criticism as well (even though he has just died).

(I have put in bold your point.)

I then responded: JJ and everyone else (as I have already said) have every right to their opinions and every right to say them loudly and clearly in whatever format they like. I just find it crass and unfeeling to speak with such disrespect of a person (whomever it is) who has just died, that's all.

I have put in bold my response to your point – maybe the fault is mine and I did not make it clear enough that by saying: JJ and everyone else (as I have already said) have every right to their opinions and every right to say them loudly and clearly in whatever format they like, I was acknowledging that you were correct in your point. I then went on to state my opinion that I found it crass, etc. given the timing and all. This seems to be the sticking point where we disagree. You seem to believe that given the nature of the forum, whether we are talking about a person who has just died is irrelevant (correct me if I am wrong on that) and I feel it is inappropriate (but not just because it is Ronald Reagan we are talking about, I would feel the same about taking shots at anyone who had just died).

However, you are correct on another point, I was rather harsh in my words to Jean Jeudi. I do find it crass and unfeeling to speak with disrespect of someone who so recently died but, I went over the line in in saying: “you are obviously just a cold-hearted person. Sorry for you and those who have the misfortune to know you.” JJ, if you are reading, I apologize for letting some emotion carry me too far.

Now, tiare, I consider this issue very well addressed and re-addressed by both of us (I hope you do too) – can we let it go and spare the other good folks here?

[This message has been edited by Flippy (edited 06-06-2004).]

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Manc Man
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« Reply #22 on: 07 June 2004, 6:17:00 am »

<<I do find it crass and unfeeling to speak with disrespect of someone who so recently died>>

More bollox. So in the summer of '45, following the announcement of his recent suicide, you would have been posting about how original was the foreign policy, what a great motivator, how nicely pressed were the unforms and that at least the trains ran on time?

After all, it's always crass and unfeeling to speak ill of the dead.

Sanctimonious bullsh:t.

mm

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tiare maori
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« Reply #23 on: 07 June 2004, 6:58:00 am »

Reason, back to the topic, I appreciate you as the sole voice of the right winged contingent on this board who attempts to support argument by fact.  However, I just cannot accept at face value your claim as to the press in the US being 90% left.  Please let me know the details of the survey (e.g. where it was published, when was it made, what was the survey sample, what exactly was the question asked). What I have witnessed since 9-11 is a sharp swing to the conservative front by traditional press sources in the US, even those that would have been considered liberal.  An example is the difficulties Mike Moore has had in publishing his books and distributing his movies since 9-11.  Even members of the media have claimed there is a strong force of self-censorship operating these days.
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tiare maori
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« Reply #24 on: 07 June 2004, 7:12:00 am »

Good point Manc Man.  Flippy, I suppose you were only full of praise and admiration for the sons of Suddam Hussein the day their dead bodies were plastered over the front pages of international papers?  We will disagree with this, Flippy and it is amazing that you cannot see the hypocracy of your position.  That we should have all had to sit through the flowing, positive, sickly sweet praise for the man that you, Reason and nikki m posted, biting our tongues because the man had just died.  

Your version of the well known quote "I disagree with what you are saying but I will defend to the death your right to say it" seems to be:

"I disagree with what you are saying, but I will defend to a point your right to say it, as long as you are clear that if you don't say it when, in the manner of and where my personal values say it should be said, that you are crass and unfeeling".  Hmnn

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Flippy

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« Reply #25 on: 07 June 2004, 8:30:00 am »

tm, it seems you just want to attach hidden meanings where I did not intend any to be. Anyway, I tried to give you your point about the nature of the forum. I read and post here as a diversion and for a bit of entertainment, but if you are going to insist on parsing every word, then it will just likely become another chore I don't need.

MM - you make an interesting point with the Hitler reference. I hadn't really thought of it in that way. Like I noted in my apology to JJ for my overly harsh words, It seems I let some emotion carry me too far. Anyway, good food for thought - thanks.

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nastiexpat

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« Reply #26 on: 07 June 2004, 17:50:00 pm »

A great man has died?
What was great about Ronald Reagan?
He wasn't particularly intelligent, created the largest deficit ever, his administration was the most corrupt, made huge mistakes in the middle east , and all he did was to bankrupt the Soviet Union, by bankrupting his own country!
However he was made for TV,  in an age where TV was starting to become the most important medium , and he knew how to use it to his advantage.
So please stop saying he was a great man. He was an ignorant and a idiot who almost brought us to the brink of nuclear disaster.
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Publius
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« Reply #27 on: 07 June 2004, 20:24:00 pm »


THE NEW YORK TIMES

June 7, 2004

RONALD REAGAN'S IMPACT SEEN, FELT, EVERYWHERE

By TODD S. PURDUM

WASHINGTON, June 6 - His name adorns National Airport, a California freeway, a stamp in Grenada, a ballistic missile test site in the Marshall Islands, a suite at the St. Regis Hotel in Los Angeles and a massive office building here dedicated to international trade. But if you seek Ronald Reagan's real monument, just look around.

Mr. Reagan's legacy lives in the career of another underrated actor turned governor of California, one born in Middle Europe and not the Middle West, who is now ruling Sacramento with a blend of charm and flint. It endures in a Supreme Court and federal judiciary still led by Mr. Reagan's conservative appointees.

It flourishes in a federal government that never got as small as Mr. Reagan might have wished, but in which the prevailing economic debate is now almost always over how much to cut taxes, not whether. It pulses in a transformed political landscape: in an energized, grass-roots Republican Party; in the first Republican Congress in a half-century; and in a Democratic Party still at pains to deflect and defuse Republican dominance.

Perhaps most of all, Mr. Reagan's legacy prevails in the muscular foreign policy of the current occupant of the White House, who seems far more the spiritual heir to the Reagan revolution than to his own father's presidential policies, and who reacted on Sunday to a question about virulent anti-Americanism in Europe by invoking the man a French headline once dismissed as a "cowboy justicier."

"I believe in a future that is peaceful, based upon liberty," Mr. Bush told the NBC anchor Tom Brokaw in an interview broadcast from France, where he was marking the 60th anniversary of D-Day near the site of one of Mr. Reagan's most famous speeches. "And I remember my predecessor, whose life we mourn,
Ronald Reagan: they felt the same way about him. Tom, that doesn't mean a fellow like me should change my beliefs. I'm not going to. I'm not trying to be popular. What I'm trying to do is what I think is right."

It was Mr. Reagan's great fortune for most of his life and presidency to be popular, and the outpouring of tributes in the 10 years since Alzheimer's disease left him adrift in a world of his own suggested that his popularity only grew with time. But Mr. Reagan lived long enough to enable many of his old lieutenants, and some more dispassionate chroniclers as well, to argue that he had also been right on some of the bigger questions of his time.

"Ronald Reagan had a higher claim than any other leader to have won the cold war for liberty," said his old comrade Lady Thatcher, the former British prime minister. "And he did it without a shot being fired."

Mr. Reagan's command of details was far from complete. He once set aside briefing books on the eve of an economic summit meeting to watch "The Sound of Music" on television. Mario M. Cuomo, then governor of New York, loved to recount how Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan tried to present him to Mr. Reagan, who interrupted, "You don't have to introduce me to Lee Iacocca!"

After it was revealed that officials in his administration had sold arms to Iran as a ransom for American hostages, then used the proceeds to help the Nicaraguan contras, Mr. Reagan only reluctantly acknowledged that it had happened, and a commission he had appointed himself concluded that his detached management style had failed him.

But most of the time, his command of direction was crystal clear.

Stuart Spencer, a political consultant who was with Mr. Reagan from the very beginning of his campaign for governor of California in 1965, recalled in a telephone interview how decisive his old boss could be.

"It was a pretty bold act to fire 11,000 air controllers," Mr. Spencer said. "At the time he said Russia was an evil empire, I know a lot of us were really nervous about it. He cut income taxes across the board 25 percent, named a woman to the Supreme Court. Those were all pretty bold decisions. Not today, maybe, but then. And he made them."

Cass R. Sunstein, a professor at the University of Chicago Law School, said Mr. Reagan's was "the most important presidency of the 20th century, with one obvious exception": Franklin D. Roosevelt. Last year, Professor Sunstein wrote in The American Prospect that Mr. Reagan's appointments had left the federal
courts fundamentally different from their predecessors just two decades ago.

"What was then in the center is now on the left; what was then in the far right is now in the center; what was then on the left no longer exists," he wrote. And in a telephone interview on Sunday, he added that Mr. Reagan's influence on federal regulation was just as pervasive, because of an executive order that required all federal agencies to do a cost-benefit analysis of major proposed rules, and to make that the basis of the rule-making, to the extent allowed by law.

"That has redefined the practices of the executive branch," Professor Sunstein said. "Clinton didn't fundamentally change it."

Indeed, Bill Clinton, a founder of the centrist Democratic Leadership Council - created to reign in his party's most liberal instincts - was among the first to recognize Mr. Reagan's sweeping political legacy. Later, as president, Mr. Clinton successfully pressed for an overhaul of the federal welfare system and famously, if prematurely, declared, "The era of big government is over."

"Ever since Ronald Reagan, Washington has been playing on his side of the field," said Kenneth Duberstein, Mr. Reagan's last White House chief of staff."Everything that has taken place since the 80's virtually has been on Ronald Reagan's territory."

It was Mr. Reagan, a New Deal Democrat turned Goldwater conservative, who lured disaffected blue-collar Democrats to vote Republican in the first place, and his upbeat personality was a crucial factor. He once cut off debate among his advisers over how much credit to give the Rev. Jesse Jackson for negotiating
Syria's release of a downed American Air Force pilot by saying, "The only way we can lose is if we're not gracious."

Senator Mitch McConnell, Republican of Kentucky, recalled how Mr. Reagan had introduced him at a rally in his long-shot campaign for the Senate 20 years ago as "my good friend Mitch O'Donnell," then continued unfazed when he realized the error, showing "how completely Teflon he was."

Mr. McConnell, now the Senate's No. 2 Republican, added: "He had an enormous impact on a lot of us, and our developing philosophies. I became a more solid conservative, and a more conviction-oriented politician, as the result of his example. He demonstrated that you don't have to flip-flop back and forth, and that you can take an unpopular position."

Newt Gingrich, whose Republican takeover of the House of Representatives in 1994 was made possible by Mr. Reagan's years of toil, told Fox News that Mr. Reagan had taught him "cheerful persistence." Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, who served Mr. Reagan as national security adviser, told CBS News that Mr. Reagan had taught him "how to be calm in the middle of a crisis; how to set a clear vision; how to use the skills you have as a communicator to push that vision forward."

If Richard M. Nixon's demons reflected a darker side of late-20th-century American conservatism, Mr. Reagan's relentless optimism projected the sun. Some of the words he used to inspire the nation and the world were the work of his speechwriters, but he shaped them meticulously, and he saw with a poet's eye.

On his 11th wedding anniversary, in 1963, he wrote his wife, Nancy: "This is really just an 'in between' day. It is a day on which I love you three hundred and sixty-five days more than I did a year ago and three hundred and sixty-five less than I will a year from now. But I wonder how I lived at all for all the three hundred and sixty-fives before I met you."

Mr. Reagan was the first president to have been divorced, and ease with his own children from two marriages often eluded him. But as the national paterfamilias, he transformed his gifts of intimate expression for use on the world's biggest stage.

"People connected to him," Mr. Spencer, the political consultant, said. "Because of his idealism, his vision. He wasn't a shouter. When he went on television, he came into your living room like a neighbor sitting on the couch. He wasn't harassing and haranguing you."

If Mr. Reagan was guided by fixed principles, he was far from inflexible. He adapted his policies to political realities, pressing for arms reductions with the Soviet Union after years of military buildup. He told his former chief of staff and Treasury secretary, James A. Baker, that he "would much rather get 80 percent of what I want than to go over the cliff with my flag flying," as Mr. Baker put it on CNN on Sunday.

Historians will long debate the impact of the huge federal budget deficits run up under Mr. Reagan's leadership, the efficacy of his tax cuts, the effects of his administration's involvements in Central America, his seeming indifference to civil rights, the environment and the plight of the poor. But few now seem likely to quarrel with his own assessment, given in his farewell address from the Oval Office on Jan. 11, 1989.

"My friends, we did it," he said then. "We weren't just marking time. We made a difference."

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Reason

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« Reply #28 on: 07 June 2004, 21:40:00 pm »

This site is like a nasty heroin addiction. After this post I'm going to detox. Hopefully you don't hear from me again.
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rolling ball
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« Reply #29 on: 07 June 2004, 23:56:00 pm »

Control man.... control.....
Suggestion is set up a rule for yourself on posting and reading this board. (ie, no more than 4 replies in a thread, skipping really long threads or replies, sticking to one or two topic on the board)

I heard one of my club member during uni days disappeared for about 2 weeks playing Evercrack.

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If you want to hire someone you want him to have all these 3 qualities: Smart, Motivated and Ethical. If he lacks ethics, you really don't want him to be smart and motivated.
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