revisiting the western women with local men thread

[Tiger Lily]

Dating is a very personal choice.  Oftentimes, outsiders point to external factors such as people of a certain skin colour having advantages or disadvantages.  Rather than speculate on this, why not get some real life examples to share their experiences . . .

captcrunch55
Since you're local S'porean, you must have many friends, colleagues or former schoolmates who are either (b) or (c).
Ask them whether any of them have ever dated a western woman (of whatever descent whether white/Asian/Hispanic/etc) and if not why not.  

If they're not predisposed to dating western women, i.e. not asking them out - are western women expected to do the asking ? even when the guys are not interested ?  Who's stopping local guys from dating western women anyway ?  They're free to date whomever they choose

[melbourneoz]

captncrunch55,
From having read various similar topics on this message board, my impression is that various people in the past have said/generalised something to the effect of:

1. The asian woman in the asian woman/white man combo thinks that a white man is a good catch. Reasons - perceived better money, she hopes to marry the ability to leave the rat race of Asia (she may not have considered that she goes to join the rat race of a Western country - the grass is always greener on the other side), perceived status (maybe related to the Mrs Pinkerton syndrome)

There is no equivalent perception in the white woman/asian man combo. There was also a previous thread that said that asian men are 'more serious' about the dating thing.

I have a further suggestion - apart from asking your friends in groups (b) and (c), you should ask white women their thoughts on this matter - they too may hold the key to your question.

Hey, maybe, you should do a randomised, control, double blinded study on this matter.

[kes]

I don't know why I'm bothered to post to this thread except to say that I have never come across a most insecure whiny group of people in my life.

I second scootergrrl.  We date people not for the colour of their skin.  Scootergrrl, I was with a friend from Melbourne yesterday and I got stares, and he was just a friend.  

Get over it people.  Date people for who they are, not for what they are.  If you feel so insecure about it, date your own kind.  

[melbourneoz]

Hey PhilM,
I don't understand why you are so hot and bothered about my entry - I was merely summarising what I've read on this board, I was not giving you my opinion, as my previous entry clearly states. Personally, I don't care who goes out with whom - other people's affairs have absolutely no impact upon my life.

[maxthecat]

I think racial profiling is an unfortunate, but occasional necessity in the realm of security (especially in the wake of 9/11) ....

but in the realm of the heart  

[Harrassed]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Amazing that procreation is possible in light of some of the stuff I'm reading here.

[rubber ducky]

maxthecat..what's the profile of a terrorist?

[tinky winky]

PhilM - I can understand with your irritation at people who assume your wife married you for worldly motives.  How wounding and cruel to both of you.  You have my sympathy.

One quick thought, though, that might help  some mixed couples.  There may be other reasons people are looking at you.  In NYC the other day, I saw a black man with a white woman and I must say I looked at them overly long.  Not entirely because of their races, though.  He was good looking and preppy.  She was a little lumpy and nerdly.  They were an odd couple for many reasons, including race. But they were holding hands and looked VERY happy with each other and the beautiful Spring day. I got a little surge of pleasure just witnessing their joy.  Had they seen me looking at them, I realized from discussions on this board, their mood might have been marred by assumptions about what I was thinking about them.  It struck me that sometimes we perceive racism and prejudice where there is none.  It behooves ALL of us on both sides to give each other the benefit of the doubt.

That's the positive side.  Of course, there's another side too.  I've seen couples in Singapore that frankly DO raise questions in my mind.  I've seen a number of older white men with very young Asian women.  Being from LA, young mixed couples don't really catch my attention.  But the obviously much older men apparently from economically and politically dominate countries with younger women apparently from economically and politically emerging/developing countries suggests too many unequal power markers: i.e. gender, age, race, money, politics.  True, their relationship is not my business.  But I do have all my senses as well as a brain so I can't help but perceive the differences and wonder if the couple is enjoying true love or each participant has more self-interested motives for being with their partner.  I try not to stare or make them uncomfortable.  But a question crosses my mind.  Just as it would if the couple were the same race and merely of much different ages.  I content myself with hoping that both people are kind to each other and that they are happy, regardless of the reasons they are together.

We all have to deal with unfair assumptions others make about us.  I live in America.  People assume I know nothing about international events, have never been out of the country, drive a big car, eat at McDonald's and support Isreal.  Because I'm from California, other Americans often assume  I'm a flaky, beach-going drug addict who sleeps around.  Based on their prejudices about Californians they sometimes say unkind things.  I get irritated, reflect on their own ignorance, and try to patiently correct their misconceptions.  Then I get on with my life.

[This message has been edited by tinky winky (edited 18-04-2002).]

[tinky winky]

To the original point of the thread:  I agree with captcrunch55 that there is a not-so-subtle racism that is more apparent when the issue is a Western woman with an Asian man.  This is obvious when you reflect that following my original question, it's taken weeks of discussion on various threads about who is posting what and why before captcrunch55 was able to initiate a reasoned if tense exchange on the subject.  (Note to those who say the topic has been "done to death," nonsense!  Even after I was shunned for raising WW w/ AM, people continued to discuss WM w/ AW.  There is a difference.)

Kudos to captcrunch55 for revisiting this issue.  (Frankly, I had bowed out.)  It is only through honest and well-intentioned discussion that these very sensitive issues can be resolved.

[Allibert]

What IS the problem with you people There IS no issue. As many have stated everybody goes out with who they like. If they don't want to go out with people of other races, either men or women, it's their business. That's all there is to it.

For .... sake give it a break, you're gettng boring

[Joseph27]

Come on people who is so petty that they care who marries who.  Personally I agree with Phil - I'm getting married with an Indonesian who is so much more intelligent than me and comes from a much better back ground.  The funny thing is that i found myself repeating that to some australian friends who were concerned because at heart they were racist bastards.  

[Poster Boy]

Pop Quiz Time:

Why doesn’t everyone on this thread ‘fess up their race/ethnicity and sex?

I will bet my annual bonus there’s a significant correlation between people who say this thread is “boring, a non-issue, a snooze, whiny, no big deal, a simple matter of numbers, etc.,” and their being either white males or Asian females.

If I'm right, then this group reminds me of those Old White Guys in the United States who dominate the ranks of upper corporate management. You know, the ones who might want to tell a female job candidate “Well, honey. We hire who we hire. Easy. I fail to see the big deal that we have so few women here. Anyways, who knows why that is.”  

Or tell an employee of color who questions the racial imbalance within a US firm: “Get over it you people. If you feel so insecure about it, work with your own kind.”

Sure, this analogy is not perfect and apologies in advance to Scootergrrl and Kes. But the level of insensitivity is very much the same, although we all know that love ain't work.

I don’t question the veracity or sincerity of ANY ONE PERSON’S current/ past/ future love relationships--SPECIFICALLY--even if they fall into the WM/AF mold.

Rather, the original contributor and some of the follow-ups to this thread were commenting on the TREND. That TREND is clear: WM/AF couples outnumber WF/AM couples here in Singapore and everywhere else that I’ve been in this world.

Stupid racial stereotyping should make everyone sick. But what should also cause queasiness is when people refuse to recognize that racial discrimination almost certainly plays a role in the lopsided RATIO of WM/AF to AM/WF couplings--if not your particular pairing.

At the end of the day, though, everyone “discriminates” when choosing a partner--except maybe the drunks at Carnage.  It’s not the discrimination per se that bothers me when it comes to romantic pairings. Rather it’s the refusal to acknowledge the role of racial discrimination, the unwillingness to reflect on the issue frankly and the rush to insist that your own professed colorblindness extends to the rest of the romantic world.

It’s sort of how I feel when I hear Old White Guys in Corporate America telling women or people of color that they haven't discriminated in hiring or promoting--it’s just that other Old White Guys happened to be the best “match.”

[kes]

FYI.  I know of a young handsome Asian Chinese male who met his young lovely Dutch Caucasian wife when they were 14 years old.  Now 13 years later, they are happily together and married and the young Asian Chinese male does not give a hoot to these racial profiling because he is secure and extremely focused and would find this topic and any topic on inter-racial dating ludicrous.

[Poster Boy]

Kes,

The CEO of Hewlett-Packard is a woman.

Does that mean the issue of sexism in the workplace, glass ceiling, equal pay, etc., is ludicrous?

My point is that we can all find examples that counter a trend. But to summarily discount such trends because of such examples is folly.

I have only anecdotal evidence to offer regarding Singapore. But I once saw a study on "outmarriage" in the US that found that Asian females were significantly more likely to marry white males than white females were to marry Asian males.

Would you really argue that discrimination by race has absolutely no influence on these results?

Yes, it may be discomforting to admit that superficial characteristics play some role in who we find "suitable." But how much credence would you give guys who said they cared not one bit about a woman's relative youth, beauty or weight? About as much credence as I give people who insist that racial discrimination is not at least one factor in the lopsided ratio of WM/AF to WF/AM couples--or to a corporate manager who says that sexism is not a factor in the unequal pay between men and women.

I'm not suggesting than anyone here is a Shallow Hal or an outright bigot. But if all people were as truly color blind as they profess themselves to be, wouldn't you expect the inter-racial ratios to be a bit more equal?

[maxthecat]

Poster Boy,

Yes, Old White Guys dominate the ranks of upper corporate management in the U.S. -- just as Old Asian Guys do in Asian countries, Old Latino guys do in Latino countries, etc.

But Jews, in the face of anti-semitism, are vastly disproportionately over-represented in such ranks (in terms of their percentage of the population) in the U. S.  How do you explain that?

You profess your support for a color-blind, sex-blind business world, and couple it with a hyperracial-conscious world of romance.

About 35 years ago, I became friends with a boy from a British father and Korean mother coupling.  A wonderful friend, he was a tough guy who would walk away from an obnoxious boy calling him "half-breed" instead of easily pulverizing him.  In those days his "difference" made him wiser than his years, I feel, about the issues of race.  Much wiser than many adults, here, now, decades later.  He ended up committing suicide in high school, and I always wonder what part, if any, self-doubt from such taunts played.  I never saw him as half this and half that.  Only as a friend who was as human as everyone else.

I love honest, sincere debate -- in which both those I debate with and myself are open to civil, logical persuasion.  But only when there is an answer to be had.  Take the Mideast for example.  As much a mess as it is, there will be a solution to it one day.

But a "solution" to the demographics of who loves whom and who finds whom attractive?

The only possible solution it seems, is for interracial couplings contributing to disproportionate trends, to either break-up, divorce, etc., or openly admit their racism (as you see it).

But should couples who serve to "even-out" the trends, such as AM-WF couples, also do so?  Or are they exempt from the "racial descrimination [which] ... plays a role in the lopsided [ratios]."

You were on to something when you said your analogies were not perfect.