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Author Topic: You're next Syria  (Read 999 times)
doorman
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« on: 15 April 2003, 17:13:00 pm »

Oh no!. Over the next few months (before the invasaion) we are all going to learn why Syria is next on the list.

The rhetoric has already started.  When will it end!!!

I need to learn about the geography of Syria now!

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« on: 15 April 2003, 17:13:00 pm »



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« Reply #1 on: 16 April 2003, 7:51:00 am »

america needs a regime change
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Publius
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« Reply #2 on: 17 April 2003, 14:25:00 pm »

Let's hope the US will invade. Syria has occupied Lebanon since 1976. It is currently the number one sponsor of terrorism (with Iran) in the world and a chief supplier of Hezbollah. Most experts believe that it was Syria, not Libya, that blew up Pan Am 107 over Lockerbie. The poor Syrians are looking at Iraq today and wishing that they too could be free from dictatorship. But you won't see it on TV. For that, you have to wait for liberation. Don't count on the French to bring it.

[This message has been edited by Publius (edited 17-04-2003).]

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Joseph27
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« Reply #3 on: 17 April 2003, 15:00:00 pm »

Publius I fully agree - oh and on that note - you know those damn Polish people supported a government that was largely anti semetic in the 1920's and 30's.  In the 1939 - some Polish mercenries actually were foolish enough to attack a German communications centre.  Those Poles needed rescuing - thank God for the Nazi's.
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"truth is a group of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms; a sum of human relation which is poetically and rhetorically intensified, metamorphosed and adored so that after a long time it is then codified in the binding canon."
Manc Man
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« Reply #4 on: 17 April 2003, 15:06:00 pm »

How long are some people on this board going to keep waffling on about US =Nazi Germany?

It's lame.

mm

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Publius
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« Reply #5 on: 17 April 2003, 15:31:00 pm »

That's right Joe, the longest lasting constitutional democracy in history that Freedom House ranks number #1 in its respect for human rights is just like the Nazi's. Ok.

By the way, Joe, was it this year or last that you finally stopped addressing your Christmas cards to Santa "Care of the North Pole".

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Joseph27
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« Reply #6 on: 17 April 2003, 17:10:00 pm »

America is obviously a long way from being anything resembling Nazi Germany -however America's government has over the past decade steadily eroded civil liberties and become increasingly vocal in pursuing both its foreign and domestic interest.  The comparison is more a warning

Oh and I continue to send my Santa requests - though the last two have been misinterpreted as hostile and shot down before they reached him.  

No where seems to be safe anymore

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"truth is a group of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms; a sum of human relation which is poetically and rhetorically intensified, metamorphosed and adored so that after a long time it is then codified in the binding canon."
funk

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« Reply #7 on: 18 April 2003, 1:16:00 am »

"the longest lasting constitutional democracy in history"

Which country would that be? England? Switzerland?

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PhilM
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« Reply #8 on: 18 April 2003, 13:52:00 pm »

Publius you are now advocating invasion of Syria, it seems you are a firm believer in the use of military might to support your Country’s and you own viewpoint. Let me make it very clear I do not support the Syrian regime; however your posts over the past few months have made me wonder if you have served in the military or are posting as a citizen.

If you have served in the military on active service then you should be aware of the true horrors of any war justifiable or not. You may have been put in the terrible situation of having to kill or be killed; you may also have seen first hand the dead or badly injured civilians who the powers that be call “collateral damage”.

If you have not served in the military then your experience of war will have been limited to what you have seen on television, heard on the radio, or read in magazines, newspapers etc. This is by no means a put down, but would you not agree if your are getting your information from your own media it could well be somewhat biased and sanitised giving you a rather one-sided impression?

For the men and women engaged on active service in any war there are two basic ways of handling it after the event. One is to ensure you remain convinced that war was the only option and that the horrors you have seen and endured had to be so to protect your country and kinfolk. The second is not so easy, that is when after the war you become disillusioned with the rationale behind the war and thus find yourself unable to accept the horrors you have seen. There are countless brave men and women whom after a war find their mental and physical health wrecked because they have doubts over the war they fought in – Vietnam is the classic example.

I am not claiming to have any smart solution that could have got rid of Saddam without war, neither am I suggesting there is a smart solution to sort out Syria. I will state though there are far worse dictatorships in the world still being sold weaponry because it suits Western big business. I would advocate this though, if half of the funds spent on this war had been put at the disposal of individuals with the right intellect I feel they could have found a way to deal with the dictators of this world without an aggressive war. The problem with that thought though is in the modern era big business (which really runs our so called democracies) sees dictators as a means of controlling other Countries economies, and war as the option to regain control if they step out of line as Saddam did.

There is no way I condone the way Saddam and his henchmen killed and brutalized Iraqis, but as an ex military man I am not convinced our troops who have come home in body bags, and the Iraqi civilians who have died (or have been maimed) died in a just war this time. Whilst I did not have the solution to Saddam, I still feel the war was unjustified particularly as the basic reasons given for going to war remain unproven.

In another thread you wrote to me as follows: -

“Listen friend, if you can't be level-headed on this board I suggest going elsewhere “ and in the same post “You ranted in thread-after-thread with the likes of Patch, Musp, MeDo, Pacifist, and countless other failed Lefties and, in the end, when the Iraqis cheered the fall of Saddam, you were left dumbfounded and scratching your head. Welcome to the real world. Politics is more than copying and pasting vapid screeds off of the internet.”

You lumped me in with Pacifist etc conveniently forgetting how many times I have disagreed with his posts in writing on this very message board. You also refer to me with others as a “Failed lefty” which shows you do not have a clue about my real politics. I am certainly not left dumbfounded not am I scratching my head, I use this board to give my own thought out viewpoint and to discuss, debate and argue it with others. Unfortunately you are now coming across as an armchair warrior whose only purpose of posting is to “shout down” anyone who does not agree with your own viewpoint.

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Publius
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« Reply #9 on: 18 April 2003, 14:28:00 pm »

Phil,

I think that you would agree that it was fairly late-in-the-day before you finally broke with Pacifist. Until s/he went off the deep-end by praising US troops getting killed, you're posts were extraordinarily similar.

If you are not on the Left than there is no such thing as a Left. To date, there has not been a post of yours that I can remember in almost two years that I would characterize as "right-wing". But, perhaps, I'm mistaken.

Also, I agree that all war is bad. But I also believe that bad things can still be necessary and right. Amputating a limb is bad but sometimes necessary.

If you believe that I have been too cavalier in advocating military action against Syria my only response is that you also believed that it is (and was) wrong for the US to take military action against Iraq. Saddam Hussein would still be ruling Iraq today if your beliefs were heeded. I believe that this outcome is far worse for the Iraqi people in the long run than the results of the war so far.

Lastly, my label of "failed Lefty" pales beside being called a "fascist", what you referred to me in your earlier post.

   

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PhilM
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« Reply #10 on: 18 April 2003, 16:35:00 pm »

Publius all I will say is look at and read the post where I first used the word Fascist again. I was simply trying to get across to you the fact if you keeping referring to all others who disagree with you as "Leftists" you lay yourself open to labeling as well - hence the smiley.

As for my own politics well Conservative by nature, but some of the things we in the UK armed forces did in the Gulf during my time made me think more about Politicians. I realised my Government used us to prop up Despots in many of the Trucial States, plus Bahrain, etc simply because of oil contracts. It is true in Salalah we were fighting Marxists from Yemen, but in the main we were used to put down the population when they wanted to get rid of their despotic leaders. This quitely goes on until this very day, but the troops involved are normally on contract and the fact they are British is not disclosed to the general public.

It is because of my own experiences I am anti-war simply because I have found all too often our Politicians lie through their teeth as to the real reason for becoming involved in both declared and undeclared wars. Have a look at this site http://www.britains-smallwars.com/  you will find many of the small wars we engaged in were non too honourable including Oman - Dhofar.

I respect your own views and am sure they are honourably held, I would ask you one question though. Does it not concern you that historically the USA had supplied arms, chemical weapons, military training and financial support to many of the Dictators and  they wish to overthrow by war today; plus they are still supplying others?

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phoenix

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« Reply #11 on: 18 April 2003, 18:03:00 pm »

why do many people think that if you are not "right wing" then you must be left

is there no such thing left as being centre or neutral

or does everything in life has to be measured by the doctrine: "if you are not with us - you are against us"?

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Publius
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« Reply #12 on: 18 April 2003, 18:21:00 pm »

Phil,

I'm sorry if I misunderstood the fascist label.

I agree that Britain, the US, etc., support alot of petty dictators that ought to be put out of commission. I read somewhere that the French Foreign Legion, for example, is in something like 35 dictatorships today.

Does it bother me that historically the US has supported criminal regimes with WMD? Absolutely. But I also believe that America's interests are the world's interests overall. During the Cold War, I didn't mind that the US supported petty dictatorships if it helped keep these states out of the Soviet orbit. The question is, where do you draw the line? I protested against US support for the contras in El Salvador and I believe that the US never should have supported Savimbi in Angola.

The US should be applauded, though, for reversing itself regardless of its motives. The world is a much better place without Mobutu, Pinochet, Saddam, Noriega, Pol Pot, and other dictators who the US has helped track down and oust despite their earlier support. Next on the list should be Assad, the Emir of Kuwait, and the Saudi royal family. Today, Idi Amin lives in a villa in Saudi Arabia.

I understand that you are upset that the US and Britain propped up these dictators in the past. This was wrong. But shouldn't you be relieved when the US and Britain work to remove them? Whatever its motives, the US has partially redeemed its earlier support for Saddam by overthrowing his regime. Is it hypocritical. Of course. But is it also right. I believe so.

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PhilM
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« Reply #13 on: 18 April 2003, 18:41:00 pm »

Publius - A good response. Yes of course I am glad the West seems to now wish to divest from power some of the Dictators and Despots they previously supported. My two problem are;-

a.  they only seem to with to take on the ones who have now denied them access to oil etc, thus the current military action is more about regaining control of resouces than freeing the people.

b. Secondly as you correctly say Idi Amin lives as a free man in Saudi Arabia, Ferdinand Marcos http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/marcos.htm  was given refugee in the USA!The West seems to have a habit of neither capturing these Dictators and Despots nor bringing most of them to trial even when they do.

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Publius
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« Reply #14 on: 18 April 2003, 19:01:00 pm »

Phil,

I only have time for a brief response about Marcos. He is a special case. Do your remember the situation in which he went into exile in Hawaii? Marcos was never overthrown by the US. Marcos was about to gun down thousands of people in the streets of Manila and the US offered him exile if he agreed to leave peacefully. The US made a deal with him and his wacky wife that included amnesty.

Marcos is a dictator that the US supported during the Cold War and, hopefully, would have brought to the Hague today.

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