A one-state solution.

[Joseph27]

How feasible is it to achieve Middle East Peace with a One State Solution ?

There have been few writers who have broached this subject however it is indeed viable for there to be one State, compromising of Jews and Palestinians.  

Perhaps a more important breakdown would be to say, one State of Jews, Muslims, and Christians. Not a State of Jews allowing others to conduct trade, nor a Nation of Muslims where no Jews are welcome, so on and so on.

How feasible? In the words of Edward Said 'there are now a million Palestinians who are Israeli citizens'. They constitute about twenty percent of the Israeli population. These people don’t want to be moved to a new state – they have lives established where they are. Similarly the existing Jewish settlements could be largely maintained existing within the State of Israel cum Palestine. With this as a foundation, and perhaps followed by a South African type reconciliation commission –peace could finally come to the Mid East.

This could be the basis of a real peace, not a 5 minute US implemented Road Map that understand NOTHING of the Palestinians peoples plight but one that sounds good on CNN for the nights news. Once again I give over to Said 'there are now Jews and Arabs on every inch of this tiny little country called Palestine, living next to each other [their lives] hopelessly intertwined'.

Their future is together – either the war goes on indefinitely with US leaders throwing billions of dollars in propping up Israel or they actually work towards a peace.  A real peace – not a Oslo Peace accord, not a handshake on the Whitehouse lawn.  A peace based on mutual respect – not one entered into by a corrupt Arafat saving his own butt nor one forced onto the Palestinian people at the end of a gun. For the violence to stop there needs to be an understanding of the past 50 years. An admission that these peoples country was stolen.

Only then can the tide be turned. Stop the violence and build a future.

Comments

[This message has been edited by Joseph27 (edited 21-07-2003).]

[FG]

There cannot be peace ... until the muslims learn to love their children more than they hate the jews.

[rolling ball]

You can say something similar to the anti abortionists who're willing to kill doctors to prevent abortions.
I think the more appropriate statement is "There cannot be peace ... until the Palestinians are given hope to get what was agreed at the UN originally."

Sounds like you're prejudiced there FG... "Muslims"? so you think muslims everywhere in the world hates the jews more than their children?
In my opinion, the children are just following their parents' example of willing to die for to fight, what their parents belief is, a jewish occupation. And the parents just think, what a hero these kids are and letting them do it. People who're willing to die either has nothing to lose and something to gain or could not stand the pain and suffering.

Just curious here, did the vietnamese children also did that when the US was there?
Personally I can't see peace happening for a few generations.

[Publius]

FG is right...until the Palestinians learn Martin Luther King's message of love there will never be peace. While Sharon and other right wing Israeli leaders declare their commitment to the roadmap and a viable Palestinian state, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the other myriad radical Palesitinian groups reject all and any compromise. Until these groups are reigned in by the Palestinian Authority there can never be peace. Unfortunately, the PA and Arafat lack the will. Even in Gaza they refuse to even disarm these groups. Arafat is currently harbouring more than 60 terrorists in his own compound.

[nualum]

FG is not right. In fact, his cute comment is nothing but an ethnic slur of the most egregious kind. It goes beyond that to imply that Palestinian parents lack elemental love of their children. Palestinian parents do not send their children out to fight Israelis or to become suicide bombers. Every report on rock throwers or suicide bombers makes it clear that the young people take up the fight against humiliation and occupation on their own initiative--to fight back, however hopelessly,  or to get revenge.

This little slur could more truly be levelled against those Israeli settlers who refuse to have their children ride to armoured buses en route to school and usually take their children with them when they drive on dangerous roads.

Edward Said has advocated this one-state position for many years. A very small number of idealistic Israeli Jews agree that this might be best. A larger number of Palestinians have thought this the best solution. The Palestinians would have the most to gain economically and politically, but most Israelis are already preoccupied with the danger of becoming a minority in their own land and believe that living with Palestinians would be unbearable. Israelis, by and large, have no respect for Palestinians and do not trust them. Indeed, hate for the Palestinians is quite common among Israelis

While I certainly hope that the road map is a success, Mr. Sharon is doing little to support it--or to support Mohammad Abbas, which he says he wants to do. The road map calls for immediately removing illegal settlements. How many illegal settlements has he eliminated? 0, or maybe one. All the others were replaced over night. How many checkpoints, which essentially turn the occupied territories into prison compounds, have been eliminated? None. What have the Palestinians gotten out of the road map so far? Photo ops, meetings, and the removal of Israeli troops from Bethlehem and the Gaza Strip (though troops still surround those areas and movement into or out of them is almost impossible). In the two months since the photo op in Aqaba, how many prisoners have been released (out of more than 7,000, of whom about 1,000 have never been charged with or convicted of anything)? Less than 100. How much of the Palestinians' tax money has been handed over to them since the agreement two months ago? None. Meanwhile, the 25 foot high wall of separation continues to be built. Every foot of it takes more land from Palestinians. It is build on Palestinian land, not Israeli land. Palestinian houses are leveled; farm fields and orchards are confiscated, all without compensation or consultation.

These are not the actions of someone who wants the road map to succeed. And as a gratuitous little jab at the sensitivities of the Palestinians, since the agreement the police have started to allow non-Muslims back on the Temple Mount--where the whole 2nd Intefada began with Mr. Sharon's jab at the sensitivities of the Palestinians.

[FG]

Rolling Stone, yes I would agree that on the whole muslims do generally hate the jews (except for the non-practicing secular muslims). Forget the middle east, I have heard muslims in Singapore and Malaysia too spew hatred against the jews though they (muslims) do not have the least bit of connection to Israel or to anything jewish. Even Musharraf (of Pakistan) got a scalding back home when he simply suggested that pakistan should consider recognising Israel as a sovereign state rightly suggesting "that Israel had done nothing to Pakistan to merit non-recognition". Being in South East Asia, you guys must be familiar with the rantings of Matahir too. What does that suggest? Love for Israel? So yes, I do stand by my statement. The objective of every muslim country is "the annihilation of Israel".

By the way, I am not sure about this ... can someone confirm if there ever was (in the last 3000 to 4000 years) a free sovereign country called Palestine?

[Joseph27]

FG that statement is incorrect.  It is not the express purpose of every Muslim state to cause "the annihilation of Israel".
There is however a great deal of angst towards the Zionist tendencies of the Israeli government.  The country with the worlds largest Muslim population went so far as to recognise Israel under the former President who happened to be one of the Country's major religious figures.  Dont get bogged down in anti Muslim rhetorhic.  I know its easy given the media but try to see past the message being sold

As I said earlier - for peace to happen there has to at least be an acceptance that a state was set up on a land that a people considered their home. T hese people were pushed aside so the Jewish people could have a State of their own.  Seems reasonable that the people displaced have got some grievences against their occupliers.  Afterall didnt Sharon even recently use the term 'occupation'?  

Not all Palestinians are suicide bombers and not all Israeli's are helpless victims.  Each side has some blame and by owning up to the past, the foundation of a future may eventually emerge...

[nualum]

FM's question about whether there has been an independent, sovereign nation called Palestine in the past 3-4000 years is pointless.

Nations are a modern concept dating back no more than 4-500 years ago. Italy and Germany were not nations till late in the 1800s. Israel was not an independent, sovereign nation till 1948. It was not one prior to that--whether 3,000 or 10,000 years ago.

[Joseph27]

Antoine you care to chime in?

[Publius]

FG is right. The Palestinians DO hate the Jews more than they love their own children. This is not an ethnic slur but a fact. Palestinian mothers happily wave their children off to suicide bombings with cake and coffee as they send their younger children to stonings, mass protests, kindergarten hate camps, and other odious endeavors. Pregnant Palestinian women describe their unborn children as "future Palestinian martyrs".

So yes, Palestinians do hate the Jews more than they love their own children.

[antoine]

Joesph27

I guess you suspected I have been watching this to see where it is going.
In my opinion it is a good topic in which all sides could be brought to the table...here at least if not in Palestine...  

I have my reservations about a good discussion in this community...
You can see a couple of posters are already taking the topic south of good and meanngful discussion...and not seem to be posting fact or reality based opinions, as well as recognizing the contributions of all sides to the problem and its resolution.

I would have loved if this was another kind of board that allowed private messages, then we could have private sensible well-meaning and solutions-oriented conversations without the various axes of terrorists which frequent the board, for want of a life and an alternative activity after the last beer.

When I saw your topic earlier, I saw right away that Private Messaging  feature was sorely a need here.

Perhaps the BM, may want to invoke that facility on this BBS if it can accommodate it, or get one of those PHP *** that lend itself to this kind of messaging etc, and has more modern user-enabling features...

Still I am watching, and will become more current with what has been posted here, since I have not read anything else with interest besides nualum's post and your intitial post.

Thanx for your post.

Peace...

[This message has been edited by antoine (edited 23-07-2003).]

[nualum]

Publius' response to my characterization of the statement about Palestinians not loving their children is simply a contradiction of my statement and an expansion of the slur. It is not a statement of fact but a retailing of some nasty propaganda which is intended to  dehumanize Palestinians.

It does not address my statements about how every report about the stone throwers and the suicide bombers indicates that the kids decide on their own and do not consult their parents.

Nor does it address my statement that the statement might be more true of those Israeli settlers who constantly and intentionally put their children in danger by refusing to transport them in armoured buses and by driving with them on dangerous roads.

[Fresh Mint]

Member: Antoine
Posts: 658
From:martinique
Registered: Feb 2001
 posted 20-03-2003 11:38 AM              
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This may be my last post...
BM, you have been a tolerant host..
You may count me when this war is done
As a martyr of conscience, cos I am one
Thanx one thanx all,
I answer another call,
And now I go of
This be my epitaph
I should rest in peace.
r. antoine dumetz
-------------------------------------

I thought he had gone and hidden under a rock somewhere? Some hope....

[antoine]

That was before Iraq...
Great memory... I survived America.....in Iraq...where were you?...still in safe Singapore.

Happy you kept a log, and are brilliant enough to quote antoine...
Has to be worth something...bet its the only good thing you have done with your life.

You still live or stay in sunny Singapore, but can criticize antoine and Malaysia, and Indonesia hell, you can criticize everyone...except Singapore...

Not so Fresh Mint
Happy you were able to respond to that..now that you have seen it, my response  serves no other purpose..I have removed it  

Thanx for your post

Peace...

[This message has been edited by antoine (edited 24-07-2003).]

[Fresh Mint]

Yup, hid under the fruit counter of Cold Storage when it started and emerged last week. Is it safe yet?