Salary for professors

[MACademia NUT]

Hi, I just read the whole thread and I think I now have a fair idea about your profile and what kind of a deal you are looking for. Insider seems to have given you a lot of useful info but most of it seems a bit superficial. So let me give it another shot :-)

First of all, I have a feeling that you are non-Chinese (most probably Indian or other SE Asian), hence the preference for Singapore. Is that right? Not that it matters here; some of the top faculty members in Marketing deptts at all univs here Indians with US PhDs (Trichy Krishnan and Rajeev at NUS, Paddy Padmanabhan at INSEAD and Krishna Erramilli at NTU).

I think with your kind of background you have the following 2 options, esp. if most of your papers are in A-Journals like JMR, JCR etc. (at least 5-6 out of your 15):

1. Full Prof at NUS/NTU (With Tenure): You'd make about S$200-250 pa (all inclusive) with substantial teaching loads. The money is less but pressure to publish would be less. You'd have Masters and PhD students and maybe some faculty members that you could work with. Both these univs are going thru many changes e.g. new Deans, Corporatization etc. There's also lot of politics because many faculty members have been around for 20+ years with little publication record surviving on heavy teaching loads.

2. Assoc Prof at SMU or INSEAD (Without Tenure): You'd make substantially more S$250-400 pa (all incl.) with minimal teaching loads, but the pressure to publish would be high. They may give you tenure after a couple of years if your research and teaching both continue to be world-class.

Why don't you check out some of the faculty profiles in Marketing area on the websites of all these univs. That should give you a fair idea about what kind of people they are able to attract.

Hope this is useful...

[missmuffet]

MACademia NUT,

Thanks for your feedback.  Please write more.

Some questions:
1. 250-400 Sing dollars for an Associate Prof seems somewhat high even by US standards and I have a feel Sing Univs pay less than comparable US schools. But you did say all inclusive. What are you including in it?
2. You seem to say that there is difference in teaching load between NUS/NTU and SMU/INSEAD. Can you be more specific?
3. Does INSEAD hire people just for their Sing campus or do they shuttle profs between Paris and Sing?

[Hold On Here]

Miss Muffet,
I am beginning to doubt your credentials. You have received SO MUCH informaiton and yet you ask questions as if you  are a newbie...But you are tenured, right?

Come on! You should know that every field and subdiscipline may have its own quirks. Heck, even within marketing, the pay range is likely to be substantial no matter where you go.

I cannot believe that you are unable to ascertain this info on your own. And if hunch is incorrect, then I am still not a believer in your sincereity given the massive amount of advice already given.

Sill the beans!

[missmuffet]

Hold On Here,

I am assuming that you are neither Insider nor Macademia Nut writing under a different name. Because I am thankful to them for whatever info they have given me.

For you I would say  if you don't have additional info to help, please don't bother to write and waste your time.

[Teacher's Pet]

Hello

Just wanted to interject -- i think you will find that in HK, most pple don't even speak and understand simple English, so getting around and getting daily chores done is a real headache! Hong kongers are also rude and crass - so it is not pleasant living with them!

Singaporeans speak English, even the least educated know simple English. They are more cultured and less crass! That makes living here easier.

I have lived in both places.

Singapore students have one prob - it is hard to get them to speak up in class and they will never give you opinions freely, so that can get frustrating. And students have less sophisticated level of thinking compared to students in other countries!

I also disagree that profs in the US get paid more. I teach at NUS, with a lot of Americans, and they have all taught at top American uni (Stanford, uni of florida, berkeley) - and they said NUS pays way more than American unis.

[Teacher's Pet]

Here are figures to help you - All are in Singapore dollars.

With a phd and 6-8 years experience, you would be at assistant prof level. 15 years would get you to associate level. To get to professor level, it is very hard to get such a position and you need abt 25 years of experience.

Professor    178,750 - 270,875

Associate Professor 108,625 - 204,875

Assistant Professor 71,500 - 121,690

Lecturer 40,560 - 83,190

[Teacher's Pet]

And here are HK wage figures..........

Professor - HK$67,600 (S$13,628. to HK$88,000 (S$17,741.6)

Associate Professor - HK$55,200 (S$11,128. to HK$72,700 (S$14,657)

Assistant Professor - HK$40,600 (S$8,185.35) to HK$64,000 (S$12,903).

I imgines these are monthly salaries.

[Insider]

Miss Muffet, Don't worry about such posts...hope things are well.

Pet--Really hard to say...I would imagine it depends on the field. Put my impression is that the pay is about 90% of US salaries give or take. But one has to look well beyond salary. Housing, benefits, retirement, etc. Overall, I think the US packages are bigger. (Comparing apples and apples). Where Singapore has a distinct advantage is with taxes, but only when the salaries are modest. Without writeoffs and with int'l schools costing a healthy chunk of change in terms of taxes, the tax benefits for the higher salaries are not so much better here.

But this is all a dance, no? I can only say that my own salary is competitive here and that overall, the package is good...about right where it would have been in the US for what I do...

Also life in Singapore is...unique...if its value to you (pos/neg) can be worth quite a bit in terms of compensation. FOr my case, I am of two minds on this...

But given the nature of Singapore, that salary HAS to be higher, as it is at great professional risk that US PHD holders come out here. Many think it is professional suicide. There again, it depends on your field and what you want to do...but for the elite, who fancy a tenured position at the top 30 US department, accepting a position in Singapore is not recommended. But overall, it depends on what you are trying to accomplish...

NUT...have to dance around numbers and specifics to keep my privacy...Was happy to see you put specifics on marketing. I am sure that was very helpful to MM.

Insider

[Insider]

Did not see the numbers posted by Pet.

Again, really depends on which field. For example, 71K about 255 less than community college salary in the US. For b-schools, starting salary is closer to S$160K.

Really depends on field, level of school, etc. My impression again is that salaries here are about 10% below that of the US.  in business related fields...perhaps closer to par with liberal arts.

More precise numbers from the community would be helpful.

All in all, the salaries are reasonable here. In Taiwan for example, the salaries are about 50% below market...terrible if you are trying to recruit global talent. Also, salaries in Europe are also quite low. The difference? You have more guarante of position (you are a civil servant). For many this is worth the loss in salary. In the US, there is no such guarantee until tenure.

But academe covers so many areas, each with a different POV. In general, the closer your field is to the market (business related fields (finance, acctng, econs, marketing) IT, applied sci/engineering, the more likely you will see competitive salaries and the more likwly you will see US universities paying premia to attract faculty. In Singapore?

Fields far away from the market (humanities, social sciences, liberal arts) tendnot to have a market-based premium or incentive scheme...

However, in many US unis, the salary structure is "socialized."

OK, running around in circles...too large of a topic to really come up with generalizations that can hold up across all fields and all types of schools.

Comparing NUS and SMU (I am less familiar with NTU) with the US schools, requires dept to dept and uni class to uni class comparisons.

Off to brekky...

[Cherry]

I am a top school U.S. Ph.d candidate. NTU give me an offer in the school of humanities and social sciences. Should I accept it? Is there any chance that I can go back to U.S. later? How U.S. will take my teaching and research experiences in NTU? Thanks

[Teacher's Pet]

Insider -  You said that a starting asst prof can earn S$160 000 -- do you mean someone with absolutely no experience, other than some part time grad student teaching, and a fresh PHD can actually command US$100 000 !?!?!?!?!? Really!?!?!?!?

To me, that seems strange, as many have told me that fresh phds with no real full time teaching experience, make far less than that. Perhaps i am wrong - does someone so inexperienced and so fresh get to command such high figures???

Hmmm.....................

Insider, i have another Q - when NTU asked for referees, do you know if they expect referees to be Singaporeans? Have you seen the referee form?

[PhD Advisor]

Dear Cherry & Miss Muffet

I think it really depends on what your other choices are. To me it seems a bit early in both your careers to be looking for a change, that too outside the mainstream US academic market. Even if you get a higher salary here in Singapore, it may not fully offset the opportunity costs.

For this reasons, many academics from the US and Europe, visit univs in Asia for short periods so that they can always go back if things don't work out. Based on my experience, I would recommend a long-term move from a top US Univ to Singapore only in the following cases:

1. You have some personal reasons for moving to Asia/Singapore e.g. taking care of aged parents, cultural incompatibility in the US, spouse's transfer etc.

2. You don't foresee any future growth for your career in the US e.g. not got tenure within 7-8 years, not publishing in top journals, poor teaching evals etc.

3. You are already an established academic, a well-known figure in your area, it doesnot matter where in the world you are and the Singapore univs pay you much more than what you get in the US.

[Money Issues]

i wanted to say this - also should not pple take cost of living into account? Not just taxes but cost of living?

For example, in the US, if you earn 50 000 - that gets you 50 000 worth of things there, but if you earn S$50 000 (Sing dollars), that doesn't mean that you only get 30 000 (using exchange rate of greenback against SG dollar) worth of things here. You still get 50 000 worth of things here.

Bear with me, i am not an economist nor a financial guru --- what i am trying to say is that, you can't put in the foreign exchange into the figures simply coz that dollar in that country gets you that dollar worth of things in THAT country.

For example if you earn US$100 000  in the US, i don't think you ought to convert that to S$170 000 and compare that way because if you earned in the US, you would be spending in the US, and so you won't be getting 170 000 worth of things, you would be getting 100 000 worth of things at the end of the day cos you would be residing in the US.

So, say you are earning S$100 000 here in Singapore, you can't look at it as US$70 000 and think that this means you are getting less goods than when you earned US$100 000, cos you will be spending the money HERE and not in US. Which means that you are STILL able to get 100 000 worth of things here.

To put it in figures, say

US$100 000 = 100 000 cans of coke.
S$100 000 will also = 100 000 cans of coke HERE.

At the end of the day, houses and cars notwithstanding - you get the SAME amount of goods for the same figure.

That is what i mean, you can't put in the exchange rate, which would mean......

US$100 000 = 100 000 cans of coke
S$100 000 = US$70 000 = 70 000 cans of coke. This is wrong since you won't be shopping in US, you will shop in Singappore with the Singapore dollar.

I hope my explanation wasn't too muggy, i was trying to make a point that the cost of living is important, not just taxes. I don't think you ought to  convert into foreign exchange figures since it throws off the comparison.

Unless you remitt ALL or MOST of your money back to the US, or you constantly shop at American websites like amazon, then that is a different story.

[Insider]

Pet--

Realize that the top US schools are about research and consulting, not teaching. Zero teaching experience is borderline irrelevant, unless of course the person cannot speak a word of English.

I qualified the salary figure by specifically noting that the salaries I was noting are for business related fields. The top hot shot PhD's coming out of the top programs can EASILY make north of US$250K. Read the WSJ around recruiting season. Each year they discuss this. Don't forget, these people are offered the same plus bonuses on Wall Street. Not all fields of course, but the closer to the money?? You betcha!

Typical top 40 US school Biz and Econ PhD's get US$85K-US$95K plus nice bennies and oftentimes breaks on their home loans. Also, the top US schools tend to have at least several excellent public schools nearby for the school-age children. MUCH better than here in Singapore, where the international schools are mediocre at best (and costly). Example: Stanford, UCLA, Berkeley, Harvard, all have excellent public schools.

Again, the teaching dimension is 98% irrelevant. Now, as you know there are also a number of liberal arts colleges out there that are more teaching and consulting focused and less pure research focused. There the salaries are about 20% less than at the top research unis. Also, the more profesional fields are pretty much absent, so market forces play less of a role. Mostly likely no business or law majors, just economics. So where a position may pay $90K at a reserch uni, expected $65-75K at the better liberal arts colleges. Put the perks are great. Motivated students. More intimacy within a community. Housing and schooling subsidies. Great bennies. Often, I long for the balance  

Fresh PhD's are engaged in cutting edge research. Look around 80% of the universities out there. Many professors, including tenured associate or full professors , are "out to pasture" and out of touch with the cutting edge in their field. Simple fact of life. Hot shots on the cutting edge don't have the breath of knowledge but know what in fashion right now. So naturally, research universities pay for this current expertise.

My favorite academics are the old guys who stay current. Very impressive. But few do so...I mean...would you knowing that you can take it easy??? Some old dogs are simply not interested in new tricks.  

Top liberal arts schools have profs that can do it all (research, consulting, teaching).

when NTU asked for referees, do you know if they expect referees to be Singaporeans? Have you seen the referee form?
>>Sorry, "I am not 100% sure" and "no." On the former, you had best be 100% sure before you initiate the process...Easy enough to confirm with your staff...

[Insider]

Money Issues,

I tried to insinuate that one really needs to compare apples and apples...part of that comparison is of course cost of living. One CANNOT do Singapore vs. the US. The US is HUGE and Amazingly varied. A flat in a nice neighborhood in Iowa costs 10 times as much (or more) in Manhattan...so it is really pointless unless we plug in real cities and comparisons.

In general...

*Cars are cheaper in the US
*Housing is cheaper in most places
*You can buy a real house in Signapore with real land that you own forever and that will geenrally appreciate...next to impossible here.
* Food tends to to more expensive in the US
* There are a lot of free activities in the US
* Taxes are much higher in the US for most academics
* There are more tax breaks in the US
* more school choice in the US, from awful to superb
*Life is more balanced
* students are more varied, from the brilliant/passionate to the stoned/cluless to the scary
* most universities are comprehensive, (like NUS)

One tricky thing about cost of living is that one really needs to compare their own idiosyncratic cost of living in places A and B. Not easy to do. I find the costs of Singapore to be a wash with where I cam from. But you are right to ask for a proper comparison. Put for the purpose of this post, the headline salary figure is a good starting point. I think in one of my rambling emails written in the wee hours I stress the need for an apples to apples comparison...

But schools do bechmark against one another, so the headline numbers are relied upon more than you think...