How much is good?

[aaac]

Hi,
I am thinking about accepting an offer in Singapore. Never been there - but have heard good things.

If I do accept I would be leaving a well paying job from USA and relocating with my wife and two kids.

We manage to save quite a bit here. How much of a package should I be negotiating (if its on local terms) to cover good housing, education (most likely expat schooling since we donot have PR) and also in the end savings of about 50K Singaporean dollars.

Please advice. I dont want to be ridiculed because of the expectations. Just want to get good straight answers.

[drefes]

Why dont you try a search on this forum. This question is asked almost every week.

You could have the answer by now.

[Ex-Calif]

How much you save depends on the lifestyle you have now, whether you want to maintain that lifestyle here and how much you make.  To determine that you need to know what kind of lifestyle you expect.  i.e.

4 b/r 2600 sq ft
2 kids - private schooling
1 car
eat out 3x week
1 vacation to the US every year
2 regional vacations every year
alcohol/smoking (expensive vices here)

Also

Who pays your taxes?

A typical family of four making US$150k per year in the US with 2 kids in SAS will need to make in the range of $350-400k sing for parity.  Here is a typical budget:

Housing - 7,000/mo
Car - 2300/mo
Util - 1200 / mo (detached or semi d with a/c) includes mobile & moderate o/seas calls
groceries - 1200 / mo
maid - 800 / mo
entertainment - 2,000

Annual Expenses

Schooling X 2 = 40,000
Home leave X 4 = 18,000 (tix + expenses)
Regional vac X 8 = 7,000
Savings goal = 50,000 (this is low IMO)

Call it 290k per year or 180kUSD

Tax Fed US
70k exclusion
110 * .30 = 33k
State
110 * .1 = 11k

So about 43k for taxes in the US

Singapore (in USD)
180k * .1 = 18,000

You have to gross up the tax due because if you get it in pay it will also be taxed.

So you need about US$250k.

Note this is a wild ballpark - you can, of course, choose to live completely diffrently

[drefes]

aaac,

BTW ..that was a copy & paste from Ex-Calif that she just uses everytime someone asks the same question. Over & over.

[CostOfLiving]

I though SG has a cheaper cost of living than other areas of the world (e.g. US, UK etc).  If so why does OP need to earn more in SG than he would have done in US to have the same satndard of living?

[extra expenses]

It will be more expensive if he chooses international school for his 2 kids if kids are currently in local school in home country; home leave trips to other side of the world - how many of us fly from US to Asia annually for our hols; car ownership/leasing much more expensive here; eating out with wine like I do at home is much more expensive here and food centres, while fun from time to time are comparing apples and oranges. The list could go on. Depends whether you want to adapt and live a more singaporean local lifestyle which can be done for a lot less money.

[Ex-Calif]

to COLA and extra expenses.  Exactly..

A lot of companies provide benefits that are non-cash - i.e. schooling, car and housing.  This means you use the benefit or you don't get it.  However the US IRS considers everything you get as taxable income.

You "can" live on SGD$30k as last I checked that was around the medium income here.  However to maintain a parity lifestyle to your home (be it US or elsewhere) you need to earn parity pay.  US expats tend to buy a lot of western goods and eat a lot more processed foods and meats.

If you are willing to come here and integrate into local schools and local lifestyle and not have the holidays just do the sums above and subtract the hols and school fees.  You can probably live in 1800sf for $4-4500/mo.

BTW - drefes is about right.  I amy not cut and paste the above but the gist of what I post is usually the same.

[drefes]

not doubt the OP has done the search by now.

ex-calif .. wasn't having a go at you btw ... just the OP seemed lazy!

[Ex-Calif]

drefes - I know you weren't taking a shot.  This Q. comes up so often I usually do cut and paste the post ;-)

[newexpat2546]

Ex califs reply is mostly correct.

I would look at the cost of accommodation, as the budget  quoted will only get you an avearge condo in a good area. If you are used to a house double the budget.

Also consider cost of deposits (3 months rent, plus one in advance, one terms school fees, plus one in advance, 3 months car lease, phone, eletric  etc).

In our case these have run to in excess of 100k sing dollars.

If you are a middle class prodesssional western expat looking to match your (modest) lifestlye in the Nth America , or Western  Europe  look at at least package of 400k. On top of that bring in 200k.

[aaac]

Thanks a lot all for your input. Looking at the figures....it almost seems Singapore is just too expensive.

And even the package that we would have to negotiate seems pretty high. I dont know whether we would be able to save that much there.....

One Q? though...

Are all the numbers that ex-calif and newexpat2546 gave in Singaporean dollars ?

Are PRs allowed to buy property there?

How much time does it take to apply for a PR?

[Land of the expensive]

The Yanks and Poms do it hard here. Firstly, their living standards, especially the Americans and the relative strength of each of the currencies make it extremely difficult for all but the most experienced and suitabily qualified to relocate to Singers and achieve a package in excess of the $400K SGD.

Fortunately for me I have the luxury of coming from Australia where we don’t have to earn that much in Singers (i.e. $400K +) to get ahead really quickly. Our currency and tax position (high rate and tax treaty) means that Singers is very attractive. Doubly, I think that we are more adaptable to the conditions and are happy to live further out to make things more affordable. It would take me five years to achieve in Australia what I have achieved here in Singers on a dollar for dollar salary i.e. $200K AUD = $200K SGD.

Personally I know many Americans and Brits who are way less money that the numbers quoted by Ex-calif and have survived very nicely. However, none of them have or would put their children through the local system so bear the expensive of international schooling, which may or may not be worth it depending on how you bring your children up. Many values simply aren’t taught at school and need to be learnt at home, and funnily enough these seem to be the ones that the parents want their children to learn the most – rant off!

In summary, I think that it is harder for Yanks and Poms to do move here with family and commitments back home than say us Aussies or Kiwi’s, but it is certainly doable. Another thing, if you want your big open home and American lifestyle then you’re certainly going to pay for it, so think seriously about how you want to live.

[Ex-Calif]

@aaac - I didn't mean to put you off.  I tend to try and post a *parity* post based on comparable US to Sing lifestyles.
The idea being - why come to Singapore if I don't save more or have a better quality of life than at home.

As I said earlier, it is possible to do it way, way cheaper than 400k.  Notice that my example had lot's of holidays in it.  Definitely not a "necessity."

There are huge intangible benefits of living here.  One is that the quality of education my son is getting is light years ahead of just about anything in the US. There are plenty of cool destinations to visit from Asia. No winters ;-)

Quite frankly Americans, in particular tend to live in way too much house.  I lived in Hawaii for 2 years in 1,200 square feet.  It was plenty big for us.  Now I have 3,000+ and rooms I never visit - go figure.

You mentioned in your first post that you are saving well now and will be giving up a high paying job.  You can save like that here but if you have to give up quality of life, why do it?

I also agree with Land of the Expensive - Americans get hammered on taxes for living and working overseas compared to Europeans and Aussies. We are about to take another slam.  It will get to the point that it doesn't make sense for Americans to go anywhere - I know we won't be missed - LOL.

Young couple Americans usually will take a smaller package and have a grand adventurous time.  Eventually almost all my people look at the separation from family and other give aways (no second car for example) and decide to go home.

[aaac]

Thanks for all your input and replies.

I have heard that if US Citizens work abroad then their income below 80K+ is not taxed in the US.

Everything above that will be taxed. Do if we make lets say 200K (USD) in Singapore I will end up paying most of the 200K - 80K = 120K  in taxes.

And for the schooling - Ex-Calif - do you send your kids to local school or public schools?

My kids are still very young and have not started school. So if I send them to a good local school should it be much of a concern?

And one more thing you mentioned was the 50K - (IMO) in your reply.
What is IMO?

[This message has been edited by aaac (edited 15-09-2006).]

[normal single american]

If it weren't for the kids, I would disagree with ex-Calif.

Without kids, you need no car, no maid, and no way would you spend S$7K/mth on housing.  The car especially - it's an impediment and an inconvenience compared to public transport.  Plus obviously school costs.

However, I imagine with kids things change.  So, basically, with kids you need to worry about all of the above crap.  I wouldn't do it on the cheap unless you have some compelling reason to do so.

As a single 32 yo guy making S$15K/mth all-in, my quality of life is as high as in the US on this amount, or higher with lots of savings.

You get US tax credits for your Singapore taxes paid, plus some housing credit.  So, about the first US$100K or so is tax free.  Still, US taxes for 2006 will be higher than in the past.  Factor that in.

There are many Westerners here living in all sorts of circumstances though.  Aussies in particular are thick as flies in SG.  Keep in mind that they are happy to escape a high tax regime, whereas US citizens have global taxation so it's the reverse (double taxation).

IMO is internet jargo for "in my opinion".