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Author Topic: investment banker?  (Read 957 times)
curious about
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« on: 13 May 2001, 23:50:00 pm »
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Just what is an investment banker?  Mutual fund manager?  An investor working for a bank?  What kind of education and qualification do you need to become one?  From reading some of the posts, these guys are the ones making the bucks.  Like some guy in his 20's getting incredible offers like 500K.  Or, are these just some jokers trying to piss off already stressed underpaid workers?

I know in my next life, I will shoot for the job of an investment banker and get relocated to Singapore.  What a life!

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ExpatSingapore Message Board
« on: 13 May 2001, 23:50:00 pm »
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Banker
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« Reply #1 on: 14 May 2001, 0:22:00 am »
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I believe the 'expatbanker' guy was a trader in an investment bank, that is a lucrative job if you are capable.
However an 'Investment Banker' is usually someone who works on the Mergers and Aquisitions side whice is advisory rather than making investment decisions, that role goes to the 'Fund Managers'.
The traders arn't really investors as such but more like speculators who take postions for the bank's own account.
Then there are the Salesmen/women who sell the products that the traders trade to the banks customers.
Confused yet? basically I think most of the bankers do get paid handsomely and I think there is really no bullsh*t on their part. Most of them find themselves in Singapore not out of choice but from relocation as the markets here are rather dull so believe it or not they actually get a 'hardship' allowance on top of thier package.

I'm also an expat, single, salary 200k per annum, bonus ranges from 6mths to 18mths depending on reaching my targets and I'm a trader with a US House. Housing is 6k , I know of many others getting much more so it's within the ball park.
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Banker
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« Reply #2 on: 14 May 2001, 0:25:00 am »
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Oh, one more, I'm late 20's and this has been my second bank, alot of guys get a huge jump in salary when they jump ship.
Qualification? degree from a top uni in Physics.
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An Investment Banker Is..
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« Reply #3 on: 14 May 2001, 1:11:00 am »
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Dear Curious:

An “Investment Banker” is typically the catchall term for someone who works in the Corporate Finance group or Mergers-and-Acquisitions group at an investment bank or similar institution. The CF types basically raise money for companies by helping to arrange equity or debt offerings and the like; The M&A bankers advise on, well, mergers and acquisitions.

Large investment banks typically also have Sales, Trading and Research groups, and, often, an Asset Management division. Professionals in these groups aren’t really “investment bankers” per se, although a research department analyst who spends too much time pimping for banking deals might as well be viewed as such.

Not surprisingly, banks typically recruit heavily among the quantitative/finance/accounting types at top universities for the entry-level help. Those who survive this grind often are sent off after a few years to obtain MBAs, with the possible expectation that they will later return to the bank with a promotion and greater responsibilities. People-and-sales skills become increasingly important as young bankers move up the corporate food chain. This is because they will be spending more time with clients and less time chained to their PCs.

The compensation by any normal standard can be very good, with base salaries alone that might exceed total annual salaries in other professions, not to mention bonuses that could be multiples of the base, at least for the more experienced people.

But do not wish for reincarnation as an investment banker. Wish for reincarnation as the kind of person who will hire an investment bank. Why? Investment banks have to compete for deals and then typically only receive a small percentage of each deal as their fee. While these small percentages can add up to a significant sum, the real wealth-creation potential is often elsewhere.

So launch or join the next greatest Start-Up, make sure you retain an ownership stake, then have all the bankers of the world fall over themselves for the opportunity to take you public and make you very, very rich.

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curious stil
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« Reply #4 on: 14 May 2001, 13:49:00 pm »
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Hey all,

thanks for a prompt answer.  I guess I have a bit more understanding but still a little confused.  Hey, Banker, I am just impressed at how you got to where you are with a physics degree.  If I remember correctly, undergrad physics degree is far more difficult to earn than business or finance degrees.  The geeks with calculator pouch on their belt were the physics majors and the well dressed frat boys who were half-drunk most of the time were the business majors when I was in a college.  But, the table has turned.  The geeks rule the world now.  They live in the biggest house, drive the fastest car and have the prettiest girls.  Who said life is fair?

Anyway, how can one go about becoming an investment banker with an unrelated degree like physics or biology?  Get an MBA?

Thanks all.  

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Bewildered
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« Reply #5 on: 14 May 2001, 13:54:00 pm »
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In my opinion the best way to carry out any mid-career career change is to go and do a MBA at a top-tier school. When you graduate with good grades you'll have investment banks, consultants etc queuing up to employ you.
Of course it's a bit of risk, could well cost over $100k in costs and lost earnings, but I guess most people think its worth it, because of the substantially higher income you'll get when you leave (hopefully).
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An Investment Banker Is..
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« Reply #6 on: 14 May 2001, 23:24:00 pm »
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Curious Still:

If you were actually one of those well-dressed frat boys who was half drunk all the time during university, then you may very well have laid the foundation for a potentially successful career as an Investment Bank Salesman!

(To avoid starting a fight, I will stipulate here that I am sure there are tons of salesmen/women who work hard, who know their stuff and who aren't half drunk all the time...I just can't think of any at the moment!)

That said, the sales staff typically communicates what the traders know about current market conditions or what the research analysts know about companies, industries, etc. Accordingly, the premium is on being able to convince clients--who may know less than you--to do what your firm's traders and analysts think is best. So you're in the game—and probably without the bother of really learning to trade or do financial analysis yourself.

OK, the above is all a bit tongue-in-cheek. The reality is all a bit more complicated than what I imply. So seriously, consider enrolling in the Chartered Financial Analyst program (Look it up on the web) if you’re serious about changing careers. This is a self-study program that will introduce you to all the topics that people at investment banks grapple with daily. You don’t have to quit your day job, but you will have to give up a lot of your free time.

And if you’re still curious, get a copy of “Liar’s Poker” by Michael Lewis. It’s dated and certainly a bit warped, but it will give you an idea of where newbie salesmen stand in the fiercely competitive food chain.

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changing career
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« Reply #7 on: 19 May 2001, 11:18:00 am »
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I am really interested in becoming an investment banker. However I don't have any experience and background in banking. I have an engineering degree from one of the US service acdemies and have served more than 5 years in the military. I am planning to do MBA after I leave the service. Is that a right move? Will my non-banking background hinder my transition to an investment banker's career? What should I major in my MBA - Finance or it does not matter?
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arbitrageur
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« Reply #8 on: 19 May 2001, 14:19:00 pm »
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RE: going to Inv.b. with US military degree
Doing a top MBA opens doors of every bank. If you have competitive military academy on your resume and decent GMAT, no top b.school will refuse you. Tnen the future is bright. You might even get a schoolarship for ex-military. Expect to work in corp.finance (eg M&A) or sales afterwards unless you served as nuclear engineer or space-wars weapons specialist to be eligible for trading. The finance profile helps you (I did that) but I don't know if recruiters distinguish it.

RE: MBA for trading. Wrong. Difficult, in my experience, if you lack the quant degree, or didn't work as middle office for years
(surprise, surprise). Best bet: get phisics, math, engineering, Ph.D.finance/economics degree from prestigeous US university (for example) - then go to trading desk right after university. If you can't make it this way, become back or middle office guy of a trading desk and stick there. Chances come.
Another alternative: the above mentioned is probably valid for a small number "high-fly" banks. You might make it with whatever degreeby first jumping into lower tier bank in lower paid but desirable position and then job-hunting for better.
It's easy to say and difficult to do. Good luck! Never envy the high paid guys, they've usually passed thousands of hurdles before ending up where they are.  

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Deriv. Trader
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« Reply #9 on: 19 May 2001, 20:26:00 pm »
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Arbitrageur, some good comments there.
Well I've been in this line for 7 years, straight after a maths degree from a top UK university, initially as a grad trainee in one of the biggest US investment banks, which makes me 28 now, and I'm now at my second firm. It's pretty tough to get in but armed with a masters from a top school is a definate advantage, I have a junior trader on my desk who is 3 years older than me, so it's never too late if you can handle working for someone who is invariably younger than yourself.
I have friends in the industry who don't start until their mid-20's but most of the high profile inv banks like to nurture their own staff, some even go as far as to call it 'brain-washing', places like Goldman expect you  to live for them. The point is this isn't a 9-5 job, you have to slog for at least 3 years at the bottom despite your qualifications, the stress can be unbearable.

However if you have what it takes then the rewards are fantastic. Derivatives, despite all the recent net- based systems is still a growing market if you find the right product.

Good luck.

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fresh MBA grad
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« Reply #10 on: 24 May 2001, 1:20:00 am »
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Dear Deriv. Trader,
Hi, my career objective is be an investment banker.  I am American and I graduated from UCLA with a BA in Business Economics.  I am going to finish my MBA very soon from NTU (Nangang Tecnological University here in Singapore).  I attended a local MBA program instead of a US program because I want to live and work in Singapore.  Also, I was told that it was one of the top MBA in Asia.  However, I find very difficult to break into the Investment banking industry.  Any assistance is greatly appreciated.  Please free feel to email me at nicolecantik@hotmail.com
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canuck

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« Reply #11 on: 02 June 2001, 0:45:00 am »
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Dear Arbitrageur/Deriv. Trader

I am looking to get into the Inv. Bkg side of the business, any info you two have on who is looking or whats the product to look at i.e. oil, electricity ,and derivatives  send me an email to
funds100@hotmail.com

thanks

[This message has been edited by canuck (edited 02-06-2001).]

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realities
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« Reply #12 on: 02 June 2001, 14:08:00 pm »
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i agree entirely with An Investment Banker Is.. on his description of salespeople....

I run a pan asian sales group selling a very quantative product for one of the top 3 us inv banks, unf  here are some realities.

Your degree or academic background bears almost no correlation with your ability to succeed in a job at an investment bank.  (Note: succcess is getting paid lots of money in this context.  As an aside, you dont event have to be very good at your job to get paid a lot of money, you just need to be very good at getting paid lots of money).  The primary use for higher degrees is merely as a candidate filtering device. (Our annual training program has 80 to 90 % MBAs, soon to become TRAINEES on maybe USD75k if they are lucky)

In my firm I can show you a senior trader who has a social science degree, salespeople and traders who have no degrees (admittedly they would find it hard to get a start now), corporate finance people whose biggest attribute (i'm not belittling it) is 15 years working in a particular industry, and scarily funny, managers who lack an ability to do anything except get their staff paid appropriately (which in an investment bank is the only attribute you want your boss to have. If they stay in their box all year and come out to lobby in december that sounds fine to me).

In general, the easiest way to get into an IB is the age old "know someone."   Get to meet and know people in the industry, apply for jobs but as in anything have some pat answers which explain why you will add some value.  (Note that these dont have to be either sensible or true, you just have to be able to convince your prospective employer that they are).  One thing about most investmetn bankers is that they have a finer nose for sniffing out BS than almost any other industry ( it takes an expert to spot one etc)

MBA's are fine to give you a boost in the selection stakes, but pound for pound a CFA course is far superior in the IB world, but it does take 3 years part time.  There is actually a bit of a backlash against MBAs at times and it is a character fault of mine and many like me that we regard trainees (yes thats what you will be if you are an MBA with no work experience) as cannon fodder for cheap practical jokes, boring tasks and visits to the coffee shop. I have a desk assistant with a US MBA  and he cant get the coffee order right yet.....

Cynicism pervades investment banks, but even we who are most cynical find it terribly disturbing that someone would be so cynical as to pay US$100k for a degree in something they fundamentally dont care about merely to get a job paying plenty.  In reality it is probably a sensible economic choice and shows some self belief, and admittedly my whole case collapses because I am allowed to be cynical but no one else is etc etc.....

So heres what I would do....

Get to know people in the business and squeeze them for info on what they do. Bear in mind they will have an a) natural tendency to make it sound terrribly complicated (when it is not), and b) an insurmountable urge to make themselves seem terribly immportant (note the first line of the second paragraph in this post).

Get a really good grounding in statistics.  If you want to work in fixed income sales or trading learn your financial maths.  If you want to work in corporate finance or investment banking understand accounting and know a bit about tax etc.  But please note that you are learning about these primarily so you can convincingly talk the jargon - apart from the stats and maths - that is actually useful.

Heres the bad bit.  If you get a job at a top tier bank with no industry experence it will be at entry level.  To understand why heres some financial math.  At bonus time, the bonus pool for particular desk or region is finite, the trick lies in slicing up the pie. In really simple english I'm not going to pay you  out of my pocket.  I want to pay you enough so you stay, but no more than that as it effectively comes out of my pocket.  And my marginal utility for money is far higher than anyone who works for me.  

But all is not lost, I will retire soon or you can do hard yards for a year and when a particular niche in the business goes bid over for people you can parley your year or two of associate into a better paying job at another firm.  

One exception is that you may have (say) 10 years experience working in (say) the consumer marketing industry.  You can parlay that relatively easily into an analyst job at a bank, again not highly paid but now at least you have the opportunity, or into corporate finance at a higher level if you bring useful industruy contacts to the table.

Nobody new to the game is going to get paid $750 USD per year, entry level even with an MBA is atm sub 100K ( its a buyers market), burt if you work hard, can bear the unbelievable drudgery, make the right connections in 3 to 7 years that money is very achievable.  Right place  at the right time is also extremely important.

Right now is cyclically a horrible time to get into a bank.  Inv banking and equities are massively unprofitable at most firms (some more math - compensation and related costs are generally around 55% to 60% of revenue - revenue in many parts of investment banks is down by 50%.  result = plenty of retrenchment globally.)  Fixed income has been strong this year but feeling job cuts too lie the rest of banks.  But it is very cyclical, at some point in the near future banks will likely be binge hiring again.  


One last piece of info is that you do not get paid for loyalty at most large firms although they do try to punish you for dislopyalty by holding back a fair amount of your compensation (at my firm 20%) for three years, and you lose it if you leave inside that period.  Until you get a reputatiion as a job hopper, you can generally get paid more and with more guaranteed by changing firms when the demand supply equation is in your favour.

One more last piece of info - investment banking is one of the only examples you can find where you have an extremely large pool of people outside the industry willing to work in the industry for less than thos currently in it, yet the price for labour never goes down.  Get someone who has done ECON 101 to explain how that works......

And finally, my final piece of info, I am absolutely 100% in this for the money and the future of my family.  I have made lots of good friends in the industry which is a very pleasant bonus, but if I was paid only  a "normal" income rest assured I wouldnt work in this industry.

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tell the truth!!
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« Reply #13 on: 02 June 2001, 14:15:00 pm »
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Dear "fresh MBA grad"

Tell the truth!  Your carer objective is not to be an investment banker, that is actually the tool to achieve your career objective which is really "pay me lots of money please", right?

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tell the truth!!
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« Reply #14 on: 02 June 2001, 14:18:00 pm »
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Dear Canuck

Now is probably the worlds worst time to get a job in IB.  Deal flow is down everywhere by 30 to 70% and more people are getting fired than hired at the moment.  But bide your time, these things go in cycles.

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