We don't fit back in in Holland

[Cloggie]

Have returned to Holland after 6 years in Asia, of which one-and-a half in Singapore. I thought I was doing well at first, at least for the first 6 months. I adjusted to the weather (cold now), the smoking that people do in lots of of places, the dogs poop on the sidewalk, the food etc etc.

But I can't deal with....the people. I just can't believe how rude they are (in cities that is). They are too agressive, too direct, too confronting, too blunt, too narrow-minded. To summarize, I just don't think Dutch people are very kind. My husband has exactly the same problem, we often tell each other in amazement at the end of the day about the things we have experienced that day.  

In addition, we think the Dutch government has not done a very good job in the past years: crime is relatively high, the police only solve a tiny part of the crimes, drug use is increasing, there is increasing tension between locals and Muslim immigrants, waiting lists for medical care are so high that people (including children) sometimes die waiting for surgery, or have to fly abroad for help. An increasing number of people do not have a GP because there are not enough GP's. Most of the mothers have to stay at home (one of the highest percentages in Europe) because daycare is scarce (waiting lists of up to two years) and very expensive. Help at home is hard to find and very expensive too (have been trying for 4 weeks now to find a sitter, so I can just go out for dinner with my husband :mad There are waiting lists for lots of things: ballet lessons for kids, swimming lessons for kids..

Compared to Singapore, the place is a mess, and in the development countries where I lived people where at least nice. For those of you who think Singaporeans are rude I say: come to Holland!!

But seriously: can anyone help us with this? Should we leave or try a little longer?

[Terak]

I can understand this well.  I used to work for a Dutch co and as a result had to interact with Dutchies all the time and frequent trips to A'dam etc.  I slowly grew to dislike the company, the place and the attitude of the people (not all...).
Many I know of have subsequently left Holland and moved to Asia or a favourite is the south of France to live but definately to get out of Holland.

My advice is if you can leave - leave!  Life is too short to put up with that BS unless you have to.  I guess it depends on what the alternatives are for you but definately SG is a good place and most people acknowledge that despite the gripes of some.  When you look into the complaints they are small things that people miss from their home country not complaints about SG (or other Asian places) per se.

If you want a European lifestyle and want to enjoy yourselves then my advice is to go to Australia.  Oz has everything; including very high taxes!

[Berlitz]

I KNOW exactly what you're going thru !

We feel the same about our return to the UK- the weather as you mentioned certainly doesn't help but it's the other things that really get the better of me, if it's not the education system, it's the public transport (mostly train, late trains!), if it's not that then it's the NHS...or at present the firefighters on strike...   the list goes on.  When you read that they are allowing more immigrants and refugees you become more confused....asking yourself, are they really crazy?  They cannot cope with this number of people and they are allowing more in, most who cannot speak English and therefore they will encounter gosh knows what problems etc.,etc.,   You just want to get on the next plane out!  Not so easy...have to find a job and take kids in tow...

My other problem is attempting to explain this to friends and to family.  They think I'm nuts.  They have travelled but not lived abroad except for some members of my family who have lived in the States.  It's one thing to go on holiday but a totally different experience to live elsewhere.

Anyway, my only suggestion is make new friends (quickly!) and just get out as often and maybe organise potluck lunches or dinners or nights out that sort of thing and with any luck you can begin to distract yourself from the problems that are causing you such frustration.

My Singaporean friends actually complain about some of their fellow countryfolk...they too have issues about their country and some of the behaviour presented from time to time.  I really believe that you find this in every single country-
being in S'pore is a little like being in a cocoon-you separate yourself from reality sometimes and forget the real world beyond Changi airport (still my favourite airport!)

Is there such a thing as an expat community in your part of the world i.e. either those who are presently expats in the Netherlands or those like you who have lived overseas and would like to get together ....?

Hope things work out for you,
all the best  ;-)))

[Snaffled]

If I were you, I would definitely stay in the Netherlands - at least for another 6 months.  Those who have lived away from their home country for significant periods of time often take up to a year to readjust to moving home.  
I'm not really sure exactly how unhappy you are living there at the moment, but I have many college friends who moved back to Ireland in the past few years after a number of years in different parts of the world & they (almost without exception) took a year to fully adjust.  
They all went through the stage of hating everything and comparing it unfavourably to where they lived abroad before finally seeing and enjoying the positive sides of life in Ireland.  

Good luck with whatever you decide to do..

[Horsesh*t]

I call this the Martian Syndrome. Colonizers to Mars will return to find Earth a rude filth-ridden hellhole. And after some time back on Earth will find Mars on the next trip a rude lousy hellhole. It's human nature, and be glad that this seemingly whiney nature is the force that propels humankind to further exploration of terra incognito.  

[very true]

Horsesh*ts not talking bullsh*t - read any literature on expatriation, and they all agree that in general, it is more difficult, and more problems occur on repatriation to the home country than the original expatriation to the host country. The adventure is over and its back to the real world...

There will always be exceptions to this, but in a small sample of our own ex-expat friends its about 95% true. Some of those have stuck it out for a year or so and got used to it - others have said "why should I get used to it?"and disappeared off on another "adventure". Only the individual can decide which is right (or possible) for them.

[very true]

I should have added that our little sample included 2 singaporean families who had been to London and hated the return ... it seems England for all its shortcomings, can still be an attractive posting.

[Calvin Klein]

As a Dutchman I can say you're right and wrong.

But it's not that different from any other country in Europe.

People become more aggressive and rude as the government fails to do what they should do.

Just have fun and smoke another one (joint).

[Coaster]

Travel broadens ones horizons.

When we are in our mother country we all think we are the best nation with the best health service, education, police, Courts etc. Only when we travel and spend time overseas can we overcome our inherent prejudices and make a balanced judgement. Our vision improves immeasureably and it doesn't hurt a bit. In fact its whilst its personally disappointing, globally it is quite encouraging.

Many British immigrants to Oz and NZ cant wait to return "home". When they do its exciting for the first day (if you are lucky) then they go about life and constantly wonder why they bothered to return and remember just why they left in the first place. They say most immigrants return once - then its out of their system.
They dont realise at the time but the return is in fact a pilgrimage - its just to say "Good-bye".

Ever think why Brits have had so many Explorers and Adventurers? Get out under any pretext. We cant choose where we are born but after that...

Singapore is governed by clever, unpretentious and pragmatic people who intervene only so far as is necessary to ensure all citizens are reasonably ok and there is no mischief etc. This honest and pragmatic conduct is responsible and what one would expect.

However in Europe we are too politically correct and we have too many pretentious creatures imposing their ideals and ideologies on society. This has created a phoney peace and the increase in racial and religious pressures continue to rise.

When I took schoolboy holidays to Holland it was the cleanest most attractive country I could imagine. Too clean! Now its just tacky and I would worry if my sons were ever to go there.

In Europe we ignore lessons passed on to us from our forebears - at the same time we refer to historical lessons. I recall University lecturers encouraging students to let off steam, protest, challenge Authority - get it out of their system. Against what? They never specified but it was rather expected and it was inappropriate to enquire.  

Whereas in Asia students and Teachers unashamedly look for common ground. And their is respect. Is that an unhealthy omen?

Someone recently said Progress is what you get when two consecutive generations agree. No wonder we Europeans (Brits at least) are backward.

The fact is in UK, unlike US, we have so little freedom, so few actual citizens rights. Unthinkable? And our politicians say we will lose our freedoms the closer we get into a Federal Europe.

Perhaps those in Europe need a forum like this one to let off some steam and get to know their "foreign" neighbours better.

[Böser Onkel]

You are not alone and the same is valid for my return to Germany.

[Eh?]

Coaster - A very nicely written piece, but really I have to say  it contains rather too many sweeping and inaccurate generalisations, nonsensical soundbites and a daft last sentence.  
Asian education?  How can you define any education as Asian?  This continent ranges from strict Islamic schools in Indonesia to constant repetition in Singapore, from jungle classrooms in Cambodia to Chinese state schools.  (Now there's a country 5 years away from implosion)
There isn't a definition large enough to come close to encompassing Asia or it's education values.  

And who exactly gave you that definition of progress?  I mean, think about it.  It's patently ridiculous and nonsensical.  

The general thrust of your points are extremely valid, and one should always broaden one's horizons in order to improve, but your examples are a bit off the mark.   Incidentally exactly what freedoms are you looking for in the UK that are not there?  Freedoms that will disappear as Europe integrates more closely?  Now there's a case of learning from one's history.  The worlds most destructive wars have originated in Europe and closer harmony and integration are seen as ways to prevent another one.  Quite successful ways, despite the clearly unproven, and slightly hysterical paranoid warnings about a federal Europe and it's intrusiveness.
And I think you'll find there are hundreds, if not thousands, of forums similar to this in Europe.  
I enjoy living in Singapore, and I find Asia to be the most wonderful place on earth, but try to keep your eyes open about things.  It's far from perfect anywhere on earth...

[Coaster]

Eh? I dont think I defined Asian Education, rather merely made a passing reference to the relationships between masters and those pupils receiving an education in Asia.

I do agree with your comments re Europe I too am a Federalist. I think I got my tongue stuck in my cheek.
I want to be a French farmer when I grow up.

Do we have the equivalent of a Constitution or a Bill of Rights yet? I thought our civil rights were only vaguely defined, flowing from the grace of Her Majesty.
Retrospective judgements are too aften made - based not on law but the desired outcome. Etc etc

[Gone]

Hi Cloggie, and all
Just had to come back to France, without really having any choice, and feels the same.
I see two reasons.
While in Singapore I always said to myself: "OK, they are weird, but I'm here to discover and I'll won't criticize the way they are."
Back home you know how "they are", you are one of them, and you cannot find any excuse for not getting pissed of !
Anyway I think our old european countries have got a major problem, which is lack of perspectives, lack of ambition, lack of vision of a different future. Everyone is keen of keeping whatever he/she gets, being afraid of change, of strangers, etc ...
Definitely not the case, generally speaking, of Asian countries.
Just listen to the news. I could not find any difference to what I heard in October 2002 from what I remembered of January 2001, although the government had changed in between !!
Unplug your TV, forget the radio, stick to your friends and family, and start planning your next expatriation !
At least that's what I am doing.
Good luck

[cloggie]

Thanks for your great replies! I think there is a lot of truth in the statement that all expats have trouble adjusting when they come home. I was prepared for this because others who returned earlier had warned me about it.

But I didn't expect it to be like this..We actually came back because of the children, the oldest is going to primary 1 soon. But I made that assumption assuming that this would be a nice country to grow up in for a child.

For example, Holland is not so safe for a woman; like in most of Europe, we can not walk in the streets at night in some areas. I miss the freedom of walking when and where I want, a freedom I have only known in Singapore, and to some extent in Vietnam and Burma. People might steal but at least they are usually not aggressive. Should I then let my daughter grow up here?

I have also always worked in all the countries where I lived, because daycare centers and nannies were easy to find. Now for the first time, I am a housewife, against my free will.

Quality of life just seems generally lower. The latest news: our life expectancy has dropped below the average of other European countries.....Maybe this is because these days, 80% of teenagers starts trying out XTC when they go out.
And the worst is: when we make fun of Holland, our local friends seem to be offended. So where is this famous "Dutch tolerance"now?? They admit to the problems of crime and waiting-lists, but beyond that, they think they know everything better and will not accept any criticism.
To conclude this I will tell you something I saw this morning. A mother is walking with her baby and toddler on the sidewalk. A bicycle passes her closely on the sidewalk. Of course, he shouldn't do that. So mummy-dear yells: You asshole!! Can't you bloody watch out!!Come here and I'll hit you in the face!!
Nice going mummy, really good example for your kids. But hey, she's right, everybody is doing it. If you don't yell and bitch half the country will walk over you.

I will try some more months. I found a sitter today which means I will soon be able to go out with husband and/or friends and enjoy the one thing that is nice here: old brown beer.

[cloggie]

"I made that assumption assuming",
of course I meant: I made that decision assuming..