Are you on assignment or local terms?

[ML]

To whiner and another whiner,

No matter if it's in Singapore, UK, US or Canada, life is too short to spend your time in misery.

I WAS exactly in your wife's position four years and that's one reason we asked for a transfer back. Having tasted a bit of what I was whining/pining for, I am SO glad to be heading back into the fray - this time with eyes wide open. It's not nice having to pray that your child does not come home from school in a body bag. There's a difference between reality and whining.

All I am saying is that it seems most of us go to Singapore for the money...period. No one drags us there. Wherever we have lived, there are some expats who are happy anywhere and some that are miserable everywhere.

Singapore can be a really cheap place if you're willing to live that lifestyle. Most of us aren't and so boo hoo. Yes it's hot, yes it's lonely being away from family, yes it's different.

If your wife is miserable, then perhaps it's not just the place...

[Whiner]

ML
Well, thanks for the confirmation of your generous words of kindess and understanding.

For your information my wife enjoyed Hong Kong and she enjoyed Tokyo even more. Both are away from home and both are more *ASIA* than Singapore. To correct your lack of knowledge Japan does not have crippling taxes - they are significantly lower than the US and Europe. We didn't speak much Japanese.

And oh, yes she shared your hate for America aswell.

I take it you do not work as a councellor nor in diplomacy. However, you do seem to have the ability to jump to conclusions...

[Enigma & Tilly]

We moved here from Melbourne, where the difference in rent is only about AUS$250, and our apartment here a heck of a lot nicer. We lived in St Kilda and would eat out about 3-4 times a week, depending if either one of us was working interstate or not, the average cost of a night out with a couple of bottles of wine nearly AUS$200, tonight we had dinner at Clarke Quay where we had Thai.  The meal was 5 dishes for $18.50 and an extra dollar for Tom Yum soup plus 3 Coronas each @ $7, it wasn't happy hour about 9-10pm and with tax it cost us about S$90.  It was a “nice place to take my wife and relax”!

Tilly and I don't have kids (luckily) and we both work in Anson Rd and Raffles Place respectively so we bus it to work @ about $4.80 a day, we don't need a car.  

Every 2nd or third week end we go to Thailand, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Malaysia, Bintan, Batum or some where else where we have not been before, on one of those getaway trips to relax and unwind on average maybe S$650 for the week end.

We have seen Buddy the musical, and we are going to see Slava Snow Show, Carmen and the jazz festival in April and May instead of going away.

Now the reason I am saying all this is because there is a lot to do here, you do not have to spend a fortune to enjoy yourselves.  

We decided why have the hassle of parking, driving and the cost of petrol with a car when there is such a efficient public transport system.  So we put the $2k travel allowance towards our entertainment budget and armed with this knowledge when we have to bus it to work and have to endure standing up for 25-30 minutes, that with the money we save we can have a great week end and enjoy eating out without blowing the bank.

At the end of the day we both have got MNC experience, Asian experience, travelled SE Asia, lived in Singapore, met a hell of a lot of great people (local, Expat and indifferent), save one full wage, and had a great experience.

Those people who do not like it here, there are quite a few countries where the cost of living is far greater than Singapore, without the ability to have a great lifestyle.  I worked in Kenya for a while and compared to that Singapore is a Haven.  Like anything though you make it what it is and it is entirely up to you whether you enjoy it or not.

It is up to you to make it in Singapore!      

[This message has been edited by Enigma & Tilly (edited 05-04-2001).]

[ML]

To Whiner: I DO hope things get better for your wife. Does she miss home or just hate it there? If the former, maybe send her home more often. Every time I went home, I couldn't wait to get back to my other "home". (Perhaps I'm one of those miserable everywhere, huh?) If the latter, then take her on a trip every quarter, minimum!

Honestly the reason I disliked Singapore was being stuck at home with a newborn while husband was off travelling here and there. I think I would have been unhappy just about anywhere not being able to work. But I had to move somewhere else (not home) in order to discover that it wasn't the place I hated, it was my situation. While in Singapore,I did manage to join the Brit Assn, go to school p/t and work p/t which made a world of a difference in my outlook.

Perhaps I should have asked the question: What brought everyone to Singapore?

[Whiner]

I joined some friends in a young company down here in which I have a minority stake. No chance to move away but we shall as soon as we possibly can.

It is not a question of missing home - more we miss the rest of Asia which we feel is less of a con-job than Singapore. There are a plethora of reasons why we hate Singapore but no sense in starting WW3.

Perhaps it's the same question of reality/whinging you defended. I would dare to suggest that the majority of Americans are proud to live in America and think it's the greatest country in the world. The vast majority from what I know don't even have a passport. I have heard people scoff at your comment about "wondering whether your kids will come home in a body bag". So then, if after all that isn't reality - then it's just a perception - yours.

Likewise, my wife's (our) gripes about Singapore are our perception. I appreciated SoSo's reply to you explaining his view of individual values. We have ours and the ways and manners of Singaporeans most definitely do not suit them. We are also not great fans of the 1984 type mind control here and the mind-numbness it seems to provoke. Others may find them quite acceptable and about that we have no argument.

My wife does her best to run her/our life here as best she can, organise her life to avoid the pieces she hates here but after a while anyone who gets the hypothetical slap in the face with a wet kipper again and agian and again and again......... has a fit of bad reaction.

So when I see others who blithely cast aside others as whiners and cast quick judgement on them as being "Asian juniors" or "silly because WE know that Singapore is REAL Asia" and basically puff up their own egos, it really p*sses me off.

[Mark D]

I have followed with interest the debates in this and other posts between those who believe Singapore is cheap and those who believe it is expensive. For a factual analysis of the relative living costs in Singapore I turn to the US State Departments quarterly Index of Living Costs Abroad report, which provides a relative assessment of living costs incurred by expatriate Americans in various overseas locations. This index is comprised by comparing the costs (at the prevailing exchange rate) of a "basket" of goods and services (excluding rent and education which are covered by separate allowances) in various locations, compared to those in the USA. Washington DC is the index base (=100). Comparisons for various Asian countries / cities are below;

Tokyo- 219
Hong Kong - 159
Taipei - 136
Seoul - 128
Singapore - 123
Peking - 122
Canberra - 120
Brunei - 122
Wellington - 107
Colombo - 101
Jakarta - 98
Bangkok - 98
New Delhi - 95
Kuala Lumpur - 93
Manila - 90
Pnomh Penh - 86

As you can see, Singapore is the fifth most expensive place to live in Asia, although significantly behind Tokyo, Taipei and Hong Kong. Information on rental allowances is less comprehensive, but interestingly the rental allowances given to State Dept employees in Singapore are a maximum of USD35,800 pa. This is double the max in Melbourne, but significantly less than Tokyo (USD78,600).

[This message has been edited by Mark D (edited 06-04-2001).]

[ML]

Whiner, okay. Take a deep breath and calm down.

If I have "blithely cast aside others as whiners", my apologies to those offended. But I think that this world is divided into those who make the best of things and those who make the worst of things... quite loudly and repeatedly.

Of course, everyone has a right to their own opinion. Vent all you want; however, let's make it CONSTRUCTIVE. There really is no need to go on and on about how much we hate or love this place. We all know both sides of the story since every bloody post on the board seems to end in a 'hate it or love it' debate. (No offense, board manager. It's a GREAT board!)

RE: USA. I by no means HATE it. Would I live there again? Absolutely. All I am saying is that one does have to wonder what is seriously wrong when within the last 3 WEEKS, there have been kids fatally shooting each other in schools -- elementary schools in middle-to-upper class neighbourhoods around Sanfrancisco I believe. And the thought of reviving nuclear power is seriously being entertained by Cheney as a possible resolution to the power crisis.

I also never implied that Singapore was the REAL Asia. I've spent enough time (both business and pleasure) in China, Japan, Hongkong, Taiwan, Korea, Thailand and Vietnam to know that.) After all, it was Malaysia just 30+ years ago. With a very young family in tow, it's MY belief that Singapore is one of the safest and easiest places to be in Asia. Our other option was HK. True, without the kids, we might have elected to live elsewhere just for a different experience.

We lived for 4 yrs in Singapore on absolute local terms and still managed to sock away enough to be comfortable back home even with a depreciating Sing dollar so I do know what it's like to stick it out. But we still valued our experience nonetheless. I even opened a successful business with a local partner and sold my share for a fair price. Like Enigma & Tilly said: it's what you make of it.

Btw, I AM an Asian who gets mistaken for a Japanese person every single time I go to Japan. Even when I am walking with my gaijin husband. So please don't assume that I don't know the REAL Asia.

Now darn it. Let's stop acting like children and just get on with the topic.

[SoSo]

Not too much of a surprise.
One thing I remember reading about these surveys though is that the "basket of goods" were obtained from locations accessible by expats. I can't remember from HKG too much, though I did find it expensive - but in Tokyo life became very much cheaper for me when my wife introduced all the discount shops. I can get many household goods in Tokyo for cheaper than I can here...

[Passer By]

Letfs recap on a few statements by ML:

"I'm not sure what you guys expect but Singapore isn't like Oz, NZ, Canada & US, thank God! It's ASIA!h
"So please don't assume that I don't know the REAL Asia.h

"Singapore can be a really cheap place if you're willing to live that lifestyle. Most of us aren't and so boo hoo. Yes it's hot, yes it's lonely being away from family, yes it's different. If your wife is miserable, then perhaps it's not just the place...h
"Whiner, I DO feel sympathy for your wife.h

"Does she miss home or just hate it there?h
"There really is no need to go on and on about how much we hate or love this place.h

"there have been kids fatally shooting each other in schools -- elementary schools in middle-to-upper class neighbourhoods around Sanfrancisco I believe. And the thought of reviving nuclear power is seriously being entertained by Cheney as a possible resolution to the power crisis.h

"Vent all you want; however, let's make it CONSTRUCTIVE.h

ML,
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

If you don't like being told something - then don't expect to accuse others of the same thing.

If you ask a question - expect a reply.

This is a board for exchange of views - not for one to get up on a soap box an instruct others what to think, like or dislike.

[ML]

Mark D,

Does the quarterly Index of Living Costs Abroad report mention any tax adjustments or just for basket of goods?

[Mark D]

No, the index only takes into account costs for goods and services (including any sales taxes or VAT) but does not take into account differences in income taxes. That would be too difficult given different allowances, tax regimes etc between countries.

[Another passerby]

Surprisingly I find myself in agreement with ML although the delivery may be lacking. She asked a simple question however it seems that expats who are unhappy take every opportunity to voice how miserable they are - no matter where they are. They give us all a bad name.

My wife and I have lived abroad for the last 20 years and find that as "guests" to a country, some of us expats are extremely boorish and ungrateful for the opportunity given. Especially to those of you who have chosen to live here, to hear you whinge is even more shameful.  

Soso, you claim to be somewhat of a veteran expat. If my wife were as miserable as your wife sounds, I would either send her packing home where she's happier while I finish my business or set my priorities straight and place value on my family over money. You also seem to forget that her localness in Japan tends to color your experience there for the better.

Life is too dear to waste it on making money.

Btw, full expat terms. In complete agreement wtih Mark's stats. Japan is nice but too expensive unless willing to live as a local or have full terms.

[SoSo]

Not sure how I got dragged into this! Either it's because I posted the original reply about there being some people that like a place and those that do not - or - someone has attempted to add two and two with the usual result.

On the "alternate" subject I would just reiterate that I personally consider it is wrong to "hush" either group for making their views known.

[ML]

Yes, somehow we've gotten completely off topic.

But Whiner, I am curious as to why your group chose Sing as base for your company rather than HK or Japan? (My other half is looking at setting something up in Japan right now.) And he was also contemplating a couple of offers in Japan but after the income tax analysis came back, it was really high so I'm also curious about the low tax you mentioned. Is that corporate or personal? I always had the impression that it was just slightly lower than Canada/Aus taxes.

[Whiner]

ML
I didn't join the company officially until a few months after inception and the other founder memebers were already living here. Not only that, the infrastructure in Singapore is undoubtedly cheaper for a start up company.

While in Japan I never paid more than 20% tax - that's about 12%-13% income tax and 6%-8% local inhabitants tax. As a Brit I do not have to pay UK income tax while non-resident. I am not sure whether Americans can utilise the local inhabitants tax to offset against their US tax liabilities. This might be a reason why Japan would appear to be expensive for tax. I have no experience of corporate taxation there.  

As far as I could work out while I was there the big taxes come on property ownership - consumption tax is charged on property when you buy and I believe some other taxes are also levied  - not sure what they are. Given the cost of property there the tax can be restrictive. Death is expensive too with very high inheritance tax - 50%-75% is what I heard from my Japanese colleagues.

Another passer by.
I assume you aimed your comments at me.
My wife and I have talked about her going home. However, much like me she accepts that life can't be perfect all the time and working through the difficult times is normally a better option. It's just at times it gets too much that smiling can be tough. We are both generally happy people. On the whole we make the best of what we have here.

However, there does come a point at which you have to call it quits. I agree that if you don't like a place then it's in your own interests (possibly even duty) to get out. Having said that though, the question of obtaining a suitable alternative position can be a lengthy process and the statement of "if you don't like it then leave" falls short of actual reality. I'm working on it.