Belief in God 'childish'

[Old Mike]

Well, not exactly,
Bohr conceived the principle of complementarity: that items could be separately analyzed as having several contradictory properties. For example, physicists currently conclude that light is both a wave and a stream of particles — two apparently mutually exclusive properties — on the basis of this principle. Bohr also found philosophical applications for this daringly original principle.

So Bohr did not really Plank down on one side or the other, thus Max imising his options.

[TheWrathOfGrapes]

Looks like we are all on different wavelengths here. Neils is not only a Bore, he is rude-mean-square.  Bohr really has nil options. Even Heisenburg is uncertain about where the photons are.

[so what]

Point taken.
Does the uncertainty of where photons are or how they move around mean that believe they do move around make that a "childish believe"?

[sunsetmel]

I believe in God. Why ? Simply because I have personally encountered HIS Presence and have known HIM as HE knows me. Childish of me? It's ok cause I'm His child anyway.

[Vulcanl]

PP says it well.  It comes down to a matter of faith.   

For believers there is no reconciliation (between the spiritual and phyical workd) necessary, this is just a 'problem' for nonbelievers.

[Rosie]

Dr. Schambaugh, of the University of Oklahoma School of Chemical Engineering, Final Exam question for May of 1997. Dr. Schambaugh is known for asking questions such as, "why do airplanes fly?" on his final exams. His one and only final exam question in May 1997 for his Momentum, Heat and Mass Transfer II class was: "Is hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your answer with proof."

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:

"First, We postulate that if souls exist, then they must have some mass. If they do, then a mole of souls can also have a mass. So, at what rate are souls moving into hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think we can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not leave.

Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for souls entering hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, then you will go to hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and souls go to hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change in volume in hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same, the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to stay constant. Two options exist:

1)If hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will increase until all hell breaks loose.

2)If hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until hell freezes over.

So which is it? If we accept the quote given to me by Theresa Manyan during Freshman year, "that it will be a cold night in hell before I sleep with you" and take into account the fact that I still have NOT succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then Option 2 cannot be true...Thus, hell is exothermic."

The student, Tim Graham, got the only A.

Love the quote OM - where do you find them?  I don't remember Heat and Mass Transfer being that interesting when I studied it years ago 

[Idi Aministrator]

In line with OM's amusing piece, here is proof that heaven is hotter than hell

The temperature of heaven can be rather accurately computed. Our authority is the Bible, Isaiah 30:26 reads, Moreover, the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold as the light of seven days. Thus, heaven receives from the moon as much radiation as the earth does from the sun, and in addition seven times seven (forty nine) times as much as the earth does from the sun, or fifty times in all. The light we receive from the moon is one ten-thousandth of the light we receive from the sun, so we can ignore that. With these data we can compute the temperature of heaven: The radiation falling on heaven will heat it to the point where the heat lost by radiation is just equal to the heat received by radiation. In other words, heaven loses fifty times as much heat as the earth by radiation. Using the Stefan-Boltzmann fourth power law for radiation
(H/E)4 = 50
where E is the absolute temperature of the earth, 300°K (273+27). This gives H the absolute temperature of heaven, as 798° absolute (525°C).

The exact temperature of hell cannot be computed but it must be less than 444.6°C, the temperature at which brimstone or sulfur changes from a liquid to a gas. Revelations 21:8: But the fearful and unbelieving... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." A lake of molten brimstone [sulfur] means that its temperature must be at or below the boiling point, which is 444.6°C. (Above that point, it would be a vapor, not a lake.)

We have then, temperature of heaven, 525°C (977°F). Temperature of hell, less than 445°F). Therefore heaven is hotter than hell.

[so what]

Idi Administrator,

The light of the sun and moon in the below statement are absolute data.
The distance from sun, moon and earth in relation to each other are absolute data as well, as is the physical composition of these three entities.

The distance of heaven to sun and moon, its physical composition and composition of protective layers such as ozon and atmosphere are however not known.

Furthermore the size of heaven is not taken in consideration as are its possible shape, rotation and speed.
The fact that we are unable to pinpoint the location of heaven may trigger the reasoning that heaven is simply too far away to be seen, or maybe heaven is invisible or transparent and unable to absorb heat at all.

Taking Einsteins theory E=MC2 in consideration, one can say that since heaven is eternal there might be no speed of light or less speed of light therefor reducing the energy contained or released therefor reducing the heat produced.

Not much for your accurate computation.....

[Kaypo]

To answer some of the pp's questions:-

1.  The Jews were God's chosen people during old testament times.  They were chosen to lead others to righteousness and to God Himself.  They failed in their mission. God appeared to Peter, one of Jesus' disciple in a vision to bring salvation to the Gentiles also.

2.  Heaven is very big, so big that anyone who wants to go there will be able to get in.   Jesus said "In my Father's house there are many mansions. I go and prepare a place for you. Where I am, you will be also."  Those who call upon His name will be saved.  I rather believe in God and deem childish but saved than mature but unsaved.

3. The Heaven and earth will be totally different from what we know now. John saw it in Revelation : "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.... And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God is its light, and its lamp is the Lamb (Jesus). By its light shall the nations walk;and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it, and its gates shall never be shut by day - and there shall be no night there; they shall bring into it the glory and honour of the nations. But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life " Therefore PP's debate on whether heaven or moon is hotter holds no water. In the new heaven, we will be living in the spiritual realm and not physical. Our earthly body will decompose after we die. We will shine like stars "And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever." For those who don't believe in God "Then Death and Hades were thrown into lake of fire; and if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

4. Einstein and other scientists are human. I rather believe in God than the words of humans.

[Idi Aministrator]

some questions for Kaypo

1. How do you know this?
2. How do you know this?
3. How do you know this?
4. why?

[healer]

Many things in the world we can not see with our eyes or any instrument known to man.  Such as an atom, its something that most people agree exist through scientific research but even scientist have not seen an atom. 

Human level of understanding of the world is still quite immature.  Much of the ocean as not even been explored.

As a topic such as God is a bit too early to make any conclusions.  Most of what happens in the world is a man made fabrication of their own imagination.  Such as the value of money, stones such as diamonds.  Or even the color blue or any other color, everyone agrees that blue looks like this and purple looks like that.  Doesn't necessarily make it real people just agree on same perception. 

Another example would be existence of t he human mind.  Most people think its in the brain but there is no real proof that it entirely exist inside the brain.  They can measure brain activity when a person thinks so everyone agrees that the mind is where the brain is.
 
If humans were just machines built the same way then why does everyone have a mind of their own and disagree etc.   

I dont believe its childish to try to look further than you can see.  Its human nature to do so. otherwise the world would be flat and if you can float in water  it makes you a witch.  Humanity has gone a long way but still has a longer ways to go. 

[so what]

Kaypo,

Even though I partly agree with you, I dont think just dumping Bible texts is a real contribution to the discussion. (So werent the previous scientific posts, but at least they were contributing to a more humorous approach of the topic)

1) The Jews were Gods people, but they were instructed to utterly destroy others who did not believe. They failed to do so.
Peter's vision is widely disputed if it meant to go out to the gentiles or if it simply meant that all food was now available for consumption.

2)Heaven maybe big, but its also said "its easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven"
Why make heaven so big if its apparently so difficult to enter?
There are even denominations that believe that heaven is only made available for a selected few of 144,000. A number mentioned in the Bible.

3) Heaven and earth might be not so different as you think. With regards to having a spiritual body, how can the beggar sit in Abrahams lap? And apparently angels have human physical characteristics. Also, did God not create man in His image?

4) I might not agree with many scientific theories, the Bible says "test the scriptures" and I believe science can be a very constructive tool to get more insight and understanding in the wonders of creation.
If there was no science, you wouldnt be able to comprehend so much of the Book you hold so dear.

Remember that many convinced believers and their Bible texts in their quest to abolish free thinking and science, have done more bad than good for both the human race and religion.

[Kaypo]

some questions for Kaypo

1. How do you know this?
2. How do you know this?
3. How do you know this?
4. why?

1. From the bible.
2. From the bible.
3. From the bible.
4. Cos I want to go to heaven and be with God. Scientists can prove or disprove any theories but they can't prove that there is no God.  I can prove that there is a God cos I have personally experienced God and know Him through His word, which is the bible. How the bible is interpreted depends on an individual.  A bible verse can be interpreted in many different ways by different individuals at different times. This can be very dangerous actually.  Reading the bible is not the same as any other book. One needs the Holy Spirit to guide him in the word of God. Without the Holy Spirit, one can never comprehend the bible the way God intended.

To answer so what's questions:

1. The Jews were not told to destroy those who did not believe. If they were, they would have killed indiscriminately. They had to wait for God's instructions. When God chose Abraham to be the father of all nations, God uses the Jews to destroy ppl like the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivities etc so that they can inherit the promised land.  God destroyed them because they were all living in sin and His intention was to raise up the Jews to build a nation that was righteous.  Stories like Noah's Ark and the deliverance of the Jews from the Egyptians by Moses are acts of God, not man.  These men were only God's vessels or instruments to do His work.  The parting of the Red Sea is a sign from God to show His presence and God has always shown His presence through His work with the Jews.  Even Non-Jews during old testament time were saved from God's wrath when they recognised that God's presence was with the Jews. Rahab and her family were saved when the Jews attacked Jericho because she hid the spies sent by Joshua. Joshua saved her family to repay her.  Why did Rahab help them in the first place? Simply, she recognised that they were from God.

Peter's vision must be read in the right context.  Peter refused to eat the food which was presented to him three times cos he deemed them unclean.  Before that, Cornelius, a Non-Jew saw a vision.  In the vision, he was told to look for Peter.  Peter's vision was to prepare him to share God's word with Cornelius and that marked the beginning of salvation to the Gentiles. If Peter didn't see the vision, he would have definitely refused to go to Cornelius' house.

Jesus said that what comes out of a man's mouth corrupts the man and not what goes into the mouth. There are many arguments among the Christians on eating food offered to idols etc. To me, to eat or not to eat, is up to a person's own conviction and I find that there is no point arguing over such trivial matter cos it makes no difference to my salvation.

2.Jesus asked a rich man to sell all that he has and give to the poor and follow Him.  The rich man refused cos he was very rich. He chose worldly possession and that's why Jesus said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than to go to heaven.  Will you sell all you have and follow Jesus if He asks you to? If you do, I assure you that you will go to heaven. I don't think that only 144,000 will make it to heaven cos there are definitely lots of christians in this world.  There will be nations and nations of ppl in heaven.  Singapore is only a small nation and we are looking at 6mil.  My main concern is that I get to go and hope that everybody will.

3. In the bible it is said that God created man in His image and here we are talking about spiritually and not physically.  Jesus came in the physical form when He was borne of virgin Mary.  We do have a spiritual form and it is in this spiritual form that we see God and know Him.

4. Yes, I agree that we can use science as a tool to test the scriptures but I can safely say that science will prove that the scriptures is right!  FYI, I teaches science and I can tell you that when I look at a living thing, I cannot help but praise God for His wonderful creation.  How can a creature in the deep ocean, which man has yet to explore, come into being if it is not created by God?