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Author Topic: Time to Invest  (Read 3318 times)
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« on: 13 October 2008, 13:35:42 pm »
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Those With a Sense of History May Find It’s Time to Invest
By ALEX BERENSON
The four most dangerous words for investors are: This time is different.

In 1999, technology companies with no earnings or sales were valued at billions of dollars. But this time was different, investors told themselves. The Internet could not be missed at any price.

They were wrong. In 2000 and 2001 technology stocks plunged, erasing trillions of dollars in wealth.

Now investors have again convinced themselves that this time is different, that the credit crisis will push economies worldwide into the deepest recession since the Depression. Fear runs even deeper today than greed did a decade ago.

But in their panic, investors are ignoring 60 years of history. Since the Depression, governments have become far more aggressive about intervening when credit markets seize up or economies struggle. And those interventions have generally succeeded. The recessions since World War II, while hardly easy, have been far less painful than the Depression.

Now some veteran investors, including G. Kenneth Heebner, a mutual fund manager who has one of the best long-term track records on Wall Street, say that the sell-off has gone much too far and stocks are poised to rally powerfully if the downturn is less severe than investors fear.

“The fact is, there are a lot of tremendous bargains out there,” said Mr. Heebner, who manages about $10 billion in several mutual funds. Indeed, by many measures stocks are as cheap as they have been in the last 25 years.

He pointed to Chesapeake Energy, a natural gas producer that he owns in his CGM Focus mutual fund. In July, Chesapeake traded for $63 a share. On Friday, it fell as low as $11.99.

He says that investors with a stomach for risk and a long time horizon should consider following Warren E. Buffett, who in the last three weeks has invested $8 billion in Goldman Sachs and General Electric.

Mr. Heebner expects world economies to contract over the next year. But he said the market plunge in the last week was no longer being driven by rational analysis. Stocks are probably falling because of a combination of panic and forced selling by hedge funds that must meet margin calls from their lenders, he said.

Mr. Heebner’s funds have not avoided the carnage this year. The CGM Focus fund is down about 42 percent so far in 2008. But his long-term track record is impressive. In the decade that ended Dec. 31, 2007, CGM Focus rose 26 percent a year, including reinvested dividends, making it among the best-performing mutual funds.

Mr. Heebner is not alone in his optimism.

“I think in years to come — I wouldn’t say months to come — we will perceive this as being a great value-buying opportunity,” said David P. Stowell, a finance professor at Northwestern and a former managing director at JPMorgan Chase. “Two and three years from now, it will seem very smart.”

Even before their jaw-dropping plunge of the last month, stocks were not expensive by historical standards, based on fundamentals like earnings and cash flow. Now, after falling 30 percent or more since early September, stocks in stalwart, profitable corporations like Nokia, Exxon Mobil and Boeing are trading at nine times their annual profits per share or less. Many smaller companies are even cheaper. Some of those stocks are trading at five times earnings or less.

Those ratios are historically low. Over all, the Standard & Poor’s 500-stock index is trading at about 13 times its expected profits for 2009, its lowest level in decades. In contrast, at the height of the technology bubble in early 2000, the stocks in the S.& P. traded at about 30 times earnings, the highest level ever. At the same time, the 10-year Treasury bond paid about 6 percent interest, compared with less than 4 percent today.

Investors have fled stocks in favor of government bonds, insured bank deposits and other low-risk investments because they are deeply afraid of the worldwide economic crisis, said Stephen Haber, an economic historian and senior fellow at the Hoover Institution. But he said he believed that fear might have gone too far.

“If there is good and wise policy, and government moves effectively, this need not play itself out in ways like the Great Depression, which is the image that is playing itself out in people’s mind,” Mr. Haber said. Government action typically does not work immediately, and banking crises around the world often require multiple interventions, he said.

Still, optimists remain in the minority on Wall Street. Most investors seem to believe that the credit crisis will do substantial damage to stocks and overall economic activity.

“We have never before seen for such sustained periods of time such a sustained turn away from risk taking,” said Steven Wieting, the chief United States economist for Citigroup. “This has broken out of the boundaries we’ve seen.” Economic activity appears to have slowed sharply in September, Mr. Wieting said.

The panic last week took the biggest toll on financial companies, as well as companies that are highly leveraged. But stocks fell 10 to 30 percent even for companies typically thought to be resistant to economic downturns, like the manufacturers of consumer staples.

For example, Newell Rubbermaid fell to $12.82 on Friday from $17.34 on Oct. 1, a 26 percent decline in 10 days. Newell Rubbermaid now trades at its lowest levels since 1990, and just eight times its expected earnings for next year.

Yet Newell Rubbermaid, whose brands include Calphalon, is profitable and insulated from the credit crisis, said William G. Schmitz Jr., who follows household products companies for Deutsche Bank. “There’s really no balance sheet risk,” Mr. Schmitz said. The company also pays a 6 percent dividend.

Newell Rubbermaid said in July that it would earn $1.40 to $1.60 a share for 2008, excluding restructuring charges. For 2009, stock analysts predict it will make $1.53 a share. And while a slowing economy may mean that people will be buying fewer products from Newell Rubbermaid, the recent plunge in oil prices will reduce its costs, Mr. Schmitz said.

“The way the stock’s reacted, you’d think they were going out of business,” he said.

Martin J. Whitman, a professional investor for more than 50 years, said that as long as economies worldwide could avoid an outright depression, stocks were amazingly cheap. Mr. Whitman manages the $6 billion Third Avenue Value fund, which returned 10.2 percent annually for the 15 years that ended Sept. 30, almost two percentage points a year better than the S.& P. 500 index. The fund is down 46 percent this year.

“This is the opportunity of a lifetime,” Mr. Whitman said. “The most important securities are being given away.” 
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ExpatSingapore Message Board
« on: 13 October 2008, 13:35:42 pm »
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Looks like
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« Reply #1 on: 13 October 2008, 13:53:45 pm »
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 the new bull run will be starting soon.
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and also
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« Reply #2 on: 13 October 2008, 14:57:01 pm »
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property prices will climb up. Credit is easily available  Grin What a joke  Cheesy
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New bull is born
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« Reply #3 on: 13 October 2008, 15:02:40 pm »
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property prices will climb up. Credit is easily available  Grin What a joke  Cheesy

Well that is what the stock markets are saying right not. Credit is going to be easily available soon (it never was a problem in Singapore for creditworthy customers)Go & buy. A new bull is born.
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« Reply #4 on: 13 October 2008, 17:55:44 pm »
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Don't get confused here. While it might be a good time to start looking for shares and perhaps commodities, the same does NOT apply to property. The reason is this:

All around the world, stock markets have lost around 50% of their value. This means an investor today has lost half of his net worth compared 12 months ago. This is a HUGE sum of money. The implications wil be dragging for years with slowing economy, retrenchments, slowing exports etc etc... Especially businesses like casinos will be hurting for a long time, until we come even close to the stock market levels we used to have before.

This is not all bad news. You can find bargains in stock market with shares that are extremely undervalued compared to the dividends. Smart investor money will start flowing to shares and starting an uphill climb. Money from property will move to stock markets as well.

It is still a time to be very cautious. Yes, more banks will fall and be nationalised. Yes, the risk is still there and the outlook is gloomy, but stock market should pick up. With property you will have to wait.

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Good advice
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« Reply #5 on: 14 October 2008, 7:39:42 am »
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Don't get confused here. While it might be a good time to start looking for shares and perhaps commodities, the same does NOT apply to property. The reason is this:

All around the world, stock markets have lost around 50% of their value. This means an investor today has lost half of his net worth compared 12 months ago. This is a HUGE sum of money. The implications wil be dragging for years with slowing economy, retrenchments, slowing exports etc etc... Especially businesses like casinos will be hurting for a long time, until we come even close to the stock market levels we used to have before.

This is not all bad news. You can find bargains in stock market with shares that are extremely undervalued compared to the dividends. Smart investor money will start flowing to shares and starting an uphill climb. Money from property will move to stock markets as well.

It is still a time to be very cautious. Yes, more banks will fall and be nationalised. Yes, the risk is still there and the outlook is gloomy, but stock market should pick up. With property you will have to wait.



Yes a bit early to go into property but the downside is limited. You want to wait   for a 10% decline when the property market could possibly surprise on the upside very quickly. Start your property search and narrow your choices right now and pounce on it the moment you sense the market is moving again.
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This is bad advice
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« Reply #6 on: 14 October 2008, 9:00:30 am »
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The market is not going to move again. Sg property is overpriced and speculators that bought on DPS is gonna suffer. You are giving bad advice.
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« Reply #7 on: 14 October 2008, 9:19:41 am »
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Singapore has its own unique problem with DPS (Deferred Payment Scheme) which is now banned as a speculative tool. Majority of these units will reach TOP 2009 and 2010, totalling units worth of one year SG property sales. Together with remaining property over-supply and weakening economy, it is a dangerous combination. You will just have to wait.

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seller of condo
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« Reply #8 on: 14 October 2008, 15:41:04 pm »
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roll on 2010 is all I can say.
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The crisis
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« Reply #9 on: 15 October 2008, 8:24:04 am »
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is far from over. Iceland started trading again after 3 days break. The result: 76% crash in less than 2 hours...

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Jobs in the
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« Reply #10 on: 15 October 2008, 8:38:06 am »
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financial sector will be lost. According to HR experts these will translate to losses of jobs in the IT sector. Followed by those in manufacturing especially the IT hardware sector. Of course the real estate sector, residential housing, will be affected. Rentals allowances will be cut. Perks for senior staff will be cut too.
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« Reply #11 on: 15 October 2008, 8:39:30 am »
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"HR" and "Expert" in the same sentence? surely you jest!  Grin
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Jester :)
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« Reply #12 on: 15 October 2008, 8:51:34 am »
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From the Guardian:

The Baltic Dry shipping index, which has been flashing amber signals about the world economy for the past couple of months, is telling us there is something going badly wrong because it is now stuck firmly on red.

The index, a proxy for world trade flows, suffered its second biggest-ever fall yesterday, to 11%, which took it down under the $2,000 mark and it fell another 8% today to $1,809. The drop means it has fallen more than 80% since July's peak of around $12,000 and is now at a three-year low.

The index has long been seen as a good leading indictor of future economic production levels because it charts the cost of freight movements in 26 of the world's biggest shipping lanes of "dry" materials, such as coal, iron ore and grain which feed into the production of finished goods some weeks or months ahead.

Think back to the first part of the year and there was a boom in oil and commodities prices, which pushed up demand for the ships to carry them. Now we seem to be stuck in the bust phase. We know that oil and commodity prices have fallen sharply because demand has faded in the face of high prices and because the world economy is being deflated by the global financial crisis.

There is some hope today that the worst of the financial crisis may be over, thanks to the mass injections of capital into banks by governments in Europe and the US. But the damage to the world economy is already a fact of life and the Baltic Dry is pointing to a further slowdown in both output and inflation in many of the world's economies.

The index may also be telling us something scarier. It may be telling us that the world's great industrial powerhouse, China, could be in trouble and that its imports of raw materials are collapsing at a far greater pace than the slow slide in demand from the West for China's finished goods would imply.

There have been increasing concerns about China this year. It has been booming for years and growing, if the official figures are to be believed, at more than 10% a year. That has, in turn, given rise to a stockmarket and housing market boom which now look to be going pop, as ours have done.

The great Asian miracle economy might now be coming apart at the seams, in spite of the official figures suggesting everything is stillfine. But the Chinese authorities cannot control the Baltic Dry.
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Experts :)
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« Reply #13 on: 15 October 2008, 8:54:56 am »
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Roubini said total credit losses resulting from the meltdown of the subprime mortgage market will be ``closer to $3 trillion,'' up from his previous estimate of $1 trillion to $2 trillion. The International Monetary Fund estimated $1.4 trillion on Oct. 7. Financial firms have so far reported $637 billion in losses, according to data compiled by Bloomberg


If you take Roubini's forecast to heart, we are less than a quarter of the way through this crisis, but even based on the less alarming IMF forecast, we have yet to reach the half-way point.
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Experts - Libor
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« Reply #14 on: 15 October 2008, 8:57:39 am »
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From the Financial Times:

The costs for banks to borrow money from each other remain at highly elevated levels in spite of the global government action taken to cure the paralysis at the heart of the financial system...

Analysts said that while stock markets had rallied and the cost of protecting bank debt against default had tumbled by record amounts in the US, it would take time for the reduced costs of what is in effect government-sponsored funding to show through.

Three-month Libor, the most important interbank lending rate that is used to price loans, derivatives and many other kinds of financial products, has barely moved in sterling markets, which have had full details of the UK government guarantee since Monday morning.

Sterling three-month Libor was just 2 basis points lower at about 6.25 per cent, more than 2 percentage points above where markets are pricing UK interest rates and higher than where the rate set before last week’s co-ordinated interest rate cuts by major economies.

Similarly, euro three-month Libor, which was down 7.37bp at 5.225 per cent on Tuesday remains high.

“The fact that the boldest banking guarantee in history was not worth more . . . raised some eyebrows,” said Christoph Rieger, analyst at Dresdner Kleinwort.

Dollar three-month Libor is reacting better, down 11.75bp at 4.635 per cent, which was accompanied by a 15bp rise in the yield on three-month Treasury bills to 0.4 per cent.

This leaves the so-called Ted spread, which measures the difference between interbank lending rates and risk-free government lending rates, at a hefty 420bp. “These developments suggest that the market is reducing the odds of imminent financial Armageddon, but that significant year-end funding issues remain,” said TJ Marta, strategist at RBC Capital Markets.

Lou Crandall, economist at Wrightson Icap, said: “Heightened concerns about counterparty risk may have been the major reason for the initial pullback from the term money markets last month, but investors’ worries about their own liquidity exposure could make them slow to [return].”
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