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ExpatSingapore Message Board 27 May 2012, 19:46:13 pm *
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Author Topic: Why do they do this?  (Read 2307 times)
Ouch
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« Reply #45 on: 08 May 2003, 10:11:00 am »
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true or not, the observation stings
why
because I was abused continually as a child, verbally, emotionally and physically. Because I was naughty, spoilt, disrespectful? No .
If anything I was quiet, shy, and fearful.I compensated for this hell by doing well at school but given a belting for getting  B. I was not ever permitted to leave the house other than for school and university.Public abuse had a special sting to it...shame .But I did not feel shame for myself but for my father at his extreme behaviour and our inability to fight back.

I was told repeatedly that this is the way chinese families do things.An excuse for a violent control obsessed person who had no other parenting model from which to learn.
My visits to Singapore quickly revealed to me that Singaporean kids enjoyed far more freedoms than I.

I have come to see that if violence and abuse is the way chinese families do things it is really because they were parented in this way.Abusers tend to abuse. Without better parenting skills being taught this type of abuse will continue.

The public screaming/hitting and humiliation of children by the chinese is their way of demanding respect. To have disrespectful, disobedient children to lose face.Losing control in public is a contradictory response in a culture that values harmony but it clearly happens a lot.  It sets up an expectation of respect. But respect that is demanded but not earned is really fear which grows into disdain and hate (I saw this often in the Singapore workplace). The stress of the workplace and the environment certainly don't help.I agree also that socioeconomic factors are also at work.

On the other hand the PC of parenting just goes too far and has reached the point of ridiculousness.I feel that children must learn that people can get angry as a consequence of their behaviour. Angry people do violent things. Children must learn from the safety of their family units that to anger others is unwise at the same time learning how to deal with anger in themselves. A slap on the bottom brings the point home quickly. Both parent and child can work together to avoid that outcome by building mutual respect.There is a world of difference between abuse and discipline.

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« Reply #45 on: 08 May 2003, 10:11:00 am »
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Sporean
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« Reply #46 on: 08 May 2003, 14:45:00 pm »
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yes though not all of them do that, the ones i have noticed are chinese parents who create such scenes in public....
I have always hated the way some parents yell, beat and shame the kid,
while he continues throwing tantrum....
Thereafter, the parent walks away from
the child, leaving him standing there crying. I have seen this happen many times whilst they are crossing at traffic lights or along pavements of busy roads. Its scary watching such scenes as i often wonder what would happen if the kid took one wrong step onto the road or something.  

I think the whole idea is to to "teach"  the child that he needs his parent no matter what as the child usually gets a little fearful standing alone and runs after the parent and of course partly because of the "cannot lose face" thingy as they don't want neighbours to see them as being a softie parent.

many parents wonder if its ok to beat your kids and why we locals respect and take care of our parents despite all that "child abuse".
i think its ok to beat your kids, as a last resort, make it quick and explain why, no need to shame them. I was beaten as a child when i Deserved it. I knew why and Learnt my lesson fast. After a couple of painful lessons, stern words were enough to keep me under control....and yes despite the beating i do respect, take care of my parents and visit them every week.  

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Wasachildamaparent readon
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« Reply #47 on: 08 May 2003, 16:44:00 pm »
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Like everyone on this board I went through life first as an infant and then a child became a parent and now an adoptive- grand parent! BUT as the topic is about small children being smacked spanked and yelled at by parents (never mind which culture or country, beside the point) I have realized and see the reasons from all angles.

My own Personal findings, analysis.

My parents were not university- educated, yet we were brought up to be honest law abiding humans, yes, a few smacks, words and actions that they thought were appropriate measures, were used. They did what they thought was right and copied their parents way of upbringing, disciplining, and the only way they knew was  by raising their voices, (mom mostly) using their bare hands to smack,(mom only) and at times even getting verbally abusive saying things like-stupid, idiot, blah blah. My dad's favorite was 'bloody fool'
Same scenario was in schools; teachers did what they wanted and parents thought this is to discipline the child because it was an accepted fact and method.

Today within the deep recesses of my mind when I reflect on some aspects of my life,  I realize why I have certain not very good qualities or behave in a way that perplexes me on hindsight and I know that, had my parents & teachers used a little restraint in their actions and words maybe I would not have some of these complexes.

Simple stuff like always wanting to please people, always saying 'sorry' always thinking, " gosh have I offended anyone?  Going out of the way to do stuff for others even at my own time & cost, always obliging, not knowing when to say 'No I am sorry but it will not be possible'--Stuff like that.
On my own in the course of the years I have learnt to forgive my parents & teachers as I know they were not aware of the repercussions their words or actions would have on a child's mind.

I vowed when I would have kids of my own I would let them be really independent, and I kept that wow, yet I strayed on many occasions---
I remember well, when my kids (10th grade) would turn up from school and say "Oh BTW, Mr. Black asked me to do this after class or get him a cup of coffee and I said 'No way, I have no time, or its not my job'.
I would kind of look at them in dismay and say "how can you say that to your teacher"?  I was brought up where you had to bend backwards for your teachers) 'Why not'? 'I am his student not his slave or garcon am I'? I realized that they were right if someone demanded instead requesting, then my kids were within their rights to refuse and from that time onwards I let them make their decisions. I have never regretted this action.


Remember the sayings they had? 'Spoil the rod and spare the child'?
Also till recently most parents everywhere in the 20's 30'40's and almost till early 60's behaved in this manner whether it was in the US, UK, the Western hemisphere or Eastern it was the same.

The difference were the levels of physical and mental abuse levied depending on financial status, and educational background - here I would like to clarify what I mean by financial-- if the family was very well off, there were nannies / governess' and therefore the parents played a lesser role in the normal day to day upbringing and nannies did not have the guts to be that active (spanking etc) if the families had no such standing in society then the interaction between the parent and child was more, so every action was noted and dealt with accordingly.

Now come the very important reasons.
In the earlier years, people married early, before the age of 30 men & women, and immediately started families. What I am trying to say before these new parents had a chance to enjoy or reflect on their own life, they were thrown into parenthood, and do not forget THEY were assisted by their parents to bring up the child!  So what the new mother was seeing was her mother bringing up the infant /child, the way she was raised and fell in to the same trap she had experienced and even if she wanted to question some of the ways or wanted a change, she did not dare to go against the knowledgeable mother! She was brought up to know that mother was always right, and had experience in this matter---now did she not bring her up?

Then the grandfather he was also thrown into the father hood role again, neither the grand parents nor the parents had a chance to reflect on what they did earlier, and so the legacy of upbringing carried on without any changes. Changes were looked down upon and one could not really have say in it as long as the new parents either lived or were living in the close proximity of their parents (See Every Body loves Raymond)? Here you can see how the mother can say and do what she wants and Frank too, how he uses the condescending, ridiculing tone, jabs at his wife, jeering, its what his father probably did, he repeats it: It's Debra who stands out a mile and its because of her keeping a proper check on Raymond, and because she is aware that her mother-in -law wants a reaction, a kind of 'Attention Seeking Syndrome', she ignores it and deals with her husband instead,  so that he does not go totally under his moms thumb! Marie knows it all, and her word cannot be questioned, so much so that she throws an emotional tantrum whenever she cannot get her own way!

If the young parents were smacked /hit abused as kids, their own suffer the same, rather like history repeating itself. No one thought, none were told, no one was instructed, no Psychologists, Psychiatrists were around, no parental guidance centers were set up as to how to cope / bring up the child. "Children were to be seen Not heard", remember?

The children those days accepted this, as they had no say at all, they had no one to defend them. Unfortunately in many cultures this has been continuing, the reason for the original posters topic.

In most cultures today extended families play a vital role in the upbringing of children, but sad to say No changes have been implemented.

Today though financially most people are well off, it is the 'make more money craze'. It is a fact and I appreciate that parents are working full time in order for their children to have the best but  the basics of parent child bonding is missing, in some scenarios children spend more time either with grand-parents or maids and on weekends when the parents do have the time they hardly know how to relate with their children.

Let us not forget that parents did not really want to harm their offspring, they did all this to bring up their kids to be straight honest law abiding humans, they did not know / realize what the repercussions would be in later life of their kids. Their perception was clouded due to ignorance and ruled by the society. No one ever thought about it that violence begets violence, or abusive words were like a language that the young minds would pick up and use in their adult life.

I saw a documentary on TLC channel (Canada) on domestic violence in an ethnic East Indian family. Day in and day out the husband stressed out with his job in a new country new surroundings, (cab driver) would return home and if his wife had not prepared his dinner to his liking he would bash her up. They had 2 kids boy 10 years old and girl 4 years old. My reason for citing this is to show how children relate to what they learn from their parents, --- When the police woman was consoling the bashed up wife she saw the young boy hit his sister with a toy and kept on bashing her, the lady officer intervened and asked him why he did so, his answer, 'my papa always does this to mama and girls should be made to listen to us, we are men, papa always says, so I am a man and she (pointing to his sibling) is taking my stuff) so she has to be taught a lesson).
Readers you can guess the way this boy's mind had been made to work, use violence to shut a person up.


They never thought with and how the mind of a child worked when confronted with harsh language or demeaning tones, here I would like to cite you an example that happened in our family not too long ago.

I was on the telephone, my adopted Gr. child 2 1/2 years old was drawing, and wanted me to see it, so she kept saying, 'look (my name)' again and again. As it was a long distance call my husband said to the little one 'Can't you see (my name) is on the phone and you are not allowing her to talk, you are being a nuisance, disturbing her! He said it using a tone that was strong and almost rebuking. I saw the face of my little one's face crumple, she felt so insulted, and eyes swelled up).

My husband comes from a family where his parents believed in the old way that 'Children should be seen not heard', a very militant family, and sometimes these old habits of his come up on the surface!) Anyway after the little one left, I spoke with him and mind you knowing him well, I had to use a very gentle soft tone (otherwise I would have had to deal with a guy who would go defensive!!  I asked him 'Tell me how old are U? And now, how old is (little ones name), do you think she thinks like you? Do you think she even knows the meaning of the words 'disturbing, nuisance? Can she analyze, understand, or think the way you do? Can she know the difference between bothering or disturbing like you do? Would it not have been easier if you had said (Little one) see (my name) is talking so wait a moment till she finishes and then show her your drawing?
Would that not have been a better stance to adopt than the way you did?  He realized his shortcoming &felt sheepish and admitted his off handed manner.
True enough on the very next day something similar happened and he did what I had spoken about and guess what? The little one said 'Yes OK' and smiled at him, as soon as I finished what I was doing she asked him 'now can I talk please?'

So my point, children as young as 2 years will accept an adults correction, way of explanation if its done in a polite manner, with RESPECT this is what respect is, respect is not demanded, it is earned no matter what the age. No child likes to be scolded or feel belittled, parents do this to show how mighty they are, how they can control all around them, its not a matter of 'control' when a parents screams and shouts, it brings out the worst in a human's thought process.
It is more a fear within themselves that they will not be able to have control over their children and in this vicious thinking, they loose their cool by loosing control, so they themselves have no control, thus they relate with their own by by going over the edge, to feel important. I have a pet saying,
"Its nice to be important" BUT more 'Important to be nice.

Using a condensing tone, rude behavior, abuse makes a child resent the authority, it does not allow /give the child the time to think rationally or figure out why his action is questioned, what is wrong, because at this moment the brain is in a 'Fight Back' & 'Its them or me'" mode. Even if the child refrains from an action or does stuff that is forced, its always done it out of FEAR, not because he / she respects the adult.

Parents who are confident, have self -esteem and respect in their normal lives, do not have to scream, shout, abuse to make their point go "home'. A simple sit down, a conversation on a one to one basis helps in the end. Communication is a very important aspect in any relationship Children are not animals that have to be conditioned.

Criticizing the child, comparing the child to another is the worst crime a parent can commit, as when this child matures to adult hood, what they have learnt and had to deal with feel-- 'Well my parents could make me bow down and they won each time, so can I, now that I am all grown up.
In many cultures, I have witnessed these young grown- ups from such families, use these as 'weapons', to get themselves to be heard and they are the real unpopular ones, like many of the bosses and others who throw their weight around, they are the ones who are made fun off behind their backs.

I would also like to add here that when children are always TOLD each time to this, do that, No, this is good for you, this color is best, this is how its done, we did it, it was OK so you have to follow the same etc. The child then does not in later years have any independence of thought, is not creative, and cannot make independent decisions, always waits for someone to give them an order. It kills their potential, here is another example. The mom of this little one I mentioned earlier, and I were travelling in a cab, now cabs can get fairly cold due to air-conditioning, so the mom always has a light cardigan on hand. In this instance she asked the little one if she would like to put it on, the little one said 'No'. The mom said 'Ok let me know if you feel cold.' Here is a mother who gave the child a choice, and then respected it once the answer was given.
That is all. I know of many instances (even in my childhood) how a simple incident like this turned into a battle, and the conversation went like this' Put it on its cold" 'NO', "I say put it on or I will smack you". 'NO'-- Smack Smack, OOOOH--WAAAGHS, loud enough for the others in the car/ cab to blow their eardrums!

Why do parents not feel that in some instances the child should be given a choice, allowed to make their own decisions? And then to respect those decisions? Is it BECAUSE they feel they will loose their parental grip?

If a child has been nurtured with respect, love, and understanding then a child will automatically respect the parent no mater what the age, yes-occasional tantrums will come about, -- Say we grownups, do we not throw our ugly tantrums? Look at this message board, grown-up, calling themselves mature responsible people, abuse, and use obscenities why? It's (in my way of analyzing) because they have a very low self esteem and by abusing or using language which is inappropriate foul is like satisfying their hunger for 'hitting out' at the world at large, they do not even have to know those whom they are attacking.

Manners, how to behave in a public place, is not just to be taught to children, Parents should first set the example. Readers have you noticed that adults can be loud, condescending to simple servers in stores shouting at them? Making them feel as if they were scums? Just because the prices have shot up, they take a bit long for some thing, or some stuff is unavailable.  I have witnessed this personally; they rant and let out their frustrations on a poor checkout counter person!
There is no law in S.E.ASIA and quite a few other countries that this kind of rude behavior calls for action by the security force in stores.

Now to the other section of canning in Singapore. Each country knows best what is best for its people, if the citizens of the country accept it then it is not for outsiders to meddle in internal affairs, no matter how and what the thinking process maybe of the 'outsider individual'.
One thing we all have to remember 'We are here as guests' and have to behave accordingly.
I know that a lot of readers are going to have their own opinions to this post, its fine by me, I have taken care and time to draft this, as I really wanted to voice what I feel.
Spanking, verbal abuse, smacking, we all have our own points of view.
I, for one do not advocate Spanking, which is different from smacking! As for verbal abuse? It is the worst thing a parent can utter. These days to call someone an idiot, or stupid is considered in poor taste, and reflects on the upbringing of the person who mouths it.

A parent should realize that calling their own flesh & blood these names means they themselves are stupid and have given birth to 'stupid & idiot kids'!

There are many good books for young parents to read and absorb on parenting, it is never too late also to apologize to your children no matter how grown-up they may be for things that you may have said or done in your ignorance or frustrations, your child will love you for it even if he is a parent today, and be a better parent themselves.
Thank you for giving me the space and your time to read this long sermon!
Forgive me if I have digressed

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Long March
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« Reply #48 on: 08 May 2003, 16:53:00 pm »
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No, you have not digressed - just a slight detour - like starting on the Long March!!!

I vote this the longest original (as opposed to pasting from elsewhere) post ever -- anyone can confirm this???

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Bagshot. Colonel
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« Reply #49 on: 08 May 2003, 17:06:00 pm »
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Yes, and having to read it twice was a waste of 90 minutes.  
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Naughty
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« Reply #50 on: 08 May 2003, 17:31:00 pm »
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Many times I have wanted to start a thread about how badly behaved the children are in Singapore!  And they are always up at all hours.  Many times we've passed comment on the LACK of discipline from Singaporean parents (and no, I am not talking about smacking just a few words of reprimand)
God, re-reading this makes me seem ancient!  I am only 26!
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brit
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« Reply #51 on: 08 May 2003, 18:27:00 pm »
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Naughty-
The only reason kids here are up till all hours is because the parents let them. If the kids are used to going to bed at 8pm, then 8.30 on special occasions is a much appreciated treat. Any kid will stay up if you let him & this is why they are all knackered half way through the day. Logical, innit?
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wasachildamaparent readon
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« Reply #52 on: 08 May 2003, 19:10:00 pm »
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Yes it my very own, took me sometime as I have a tendency to ramble ,so took care to try & stick to the topic! I have it on MS word! helps with the spelling stuff.
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expatriate
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« Reply #53 on: 17 May 2003, 8:44:00 am »
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And everything leads to a conclusion that, Singapore is a first world country with third world citizens.

Well, why? The government has to tell its citizens not to spit, cover their mouth when sneezing o coughing, wash their hands, improve personal hygiene, etc.

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