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Author Topic: 10 Good reasons to be a Singapore property bear  (Read 8538 times)
chaos theory
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« on: 03 June 2009, 13:54:04 pm »
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10 Good reasons to be a Singapore property bear

1. The current "greenshoots" recovery is totally driven by taxpayers money. Not just cash reserves but mostly future tax income. This means for decades, Govts will not be able to spend on essential services and infrastructure. There has not been an upswing in production or demand just a inflow of borrowed taxpayers cash. So we have yet another mini bubble created by false liquidity without any new wealth creation.

2. The global economy has stopped its downward spiral but it is still sick and many parts of it are still dying. It is most likely the West will flatline and stagnate for decades which will put the entire Singapore economy at risk. Just look at the last Q loss for NCL.

3. While the economy may not yet hit its bottom, interest rates certainly have. The only way forward is up for interest rates as banks attract private equity to re-capitalise. Singapore will need to follow this trend. This will devastate property affordability. Because Singapore is comming off such a low base rate now. Just a 1% rate increase will cut the amount able to be borrowed by 20 -30%. This will reflect with a corresponding price drop.

4. Supply. The supply is 3 X higher than during the last property crash in 97. The supply issue compounds from 2010 onwards.

5. DPS. This is Singapores subprime on steriods. If it wasnt a problem, the Govt would not have cut it off in 07. This hits the fan in 2010

6.Historical data. The 15 year historical data shows Singapore property to be one of the worst performing asset classes in the world both from a yield and capital gain. Its been said here before that if you bought in 96 you were still underwater even at the peak of 07. The people here who talk about "missing the boat" are just dumb. The boat hasnt been built yet. The agent trolls who bought in 07 will be passing on negative equity to their children.

7. Cultural. The kiasu culture will always mean that the Singapore market will vastly overshoot its value in an upswing. The controlled mindset of the masses by the media etc means they have a lemming mentality that doesnt know its falling off a cliff until they hit the rocks. Like now.

8. Structural. The structure of the Singapore property market is inverse to most Western markets ie it is 80% public and 20% private. This will change over time as more HDBs are replaced with Condo apartments. There is no lack of space in Singapore just a lack of 1st world accommodation. As this changes over time the relative value of Condos will decrease.

9. Affordability. Singapore has one of the worlds highest household debt levels because they are paying too much for housing. 8% of HDB owners are in default. The price of housing has been pushed up by speculation and poor economic management. Now the expat exodus has begun, the ability of the market to repay this debt is at risk.

10. Global unstability. With a flatline western demand, China will struggle to fill its factories with workers. China faces an un certain future in a low growth world. This will mean more global tax resource will be focused on defence and security. Refer to point 1 which means even less money for building a better world.
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« on: 03 June 2009, 13:54:04 pm »
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« Reply #1 on: 03 June 2009, 14:21:35 pm »
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Obviously you are a glass half empty type. Not much point trying to sell you anything anywhere, as in your world we aren't going to avoid armageddon.

That being said, I am sure there are more than a few others who will probably take the time to refute most, if not all, your points. After all, Singapore did just fine over the past 40 years, so my guess is there won't be that many people who see life regressing to a Malaysian or Thai level in the near future.
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chaos theory
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« Reply #2 on: 03 June 2009, 15:01:13 pm »
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Obviously you are a glass half empty type. Not much point trying to sell you anything anywhere, as in your world we aren't going to avoid armageddon.

Not true on the first part. I have always said the glass is full. So if we currently keep going at the current pace of growth, well yes I agree, we can not avoid armageddon.
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I agree
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« Reply #3 on: 03 June 2009, 16:25:05 pm »
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as an investment at present - Singapore property does not look that good - I don't think we will see some of the 2007 valuations for another 10 years. That said I don't agree with much of what you said in your e-mail.
If you bought in 03 and sold in 06 or 07 - you made good money
As an owner occupier I think it is a different story.
I was here for 7 years before I bought - in that time I paid S$ 840k in rent.
I bought Q4 05 - just before it took off -
Irrespective of the capital appreciation I have paid S$ 210k in mortgage repayments vs S$ 462k I would have paid in rent.
I am here for the long term so can take the illiquidity risk and I am pretty indifferent to the value of my place in the short term - it is my home not an investment - albeit I expect some capital appreciation.
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chaos theory
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« Reply #4 on: 03 June 2009, 17:23:04 pm »
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Thats my point. It is critical to buy Singapore property at its fair value like you did in 03. Well done. Its now totally overvalued and will fall back to afforable levels probably sometime 2010 or 2011.

But dont you think it would be better to have an asset that is more stable to plan your wealth creation around? What if you need to borrow money to send your kids to uni in 2011 and you cant because you are in negative equity territory.

Stable, gradual growth, in line with income is much better in the long term than sharp rises and falls. It all gets down to the immaturity of MAS in its ability to manage the economy with respect to inflationary forces.
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a proper rebuttal
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« Reply #5 on: 03 June 2009, 18:59:07 pm »
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10 Good reasons to be a Singapore property bear

10 Good reasons not to listen to a Singapore property bear

1. The current "greenshoots" recovery is totally driven by taxpayers money. Not just cash reserves but mostly future tax income. This means for decades, Govts will not be able to spend on essential services and infrastructure. There has not been an upswing in production or demand just a inflow of borrowed taxpayers cash. So we have yet another mini bubble created by false liquidity without any new wealth creation.

Judging from China's ISM data this week, more uptrend in production than you think.  However, even if you buy into what you are saying, the taxpayers money will most certainly NOT be sucked out of the system by 2010-11.  This is trillions of dollars we are talking about.  Therefore, highly unlikely for Singapore property to fall back to those reasonable levels you are talking about, if liquidity is indeed what is driving the equation.

2. The global economy has stopped its downward spiral but it is still sick and many parts of it are still dying. It is most likely the West will flatline and stagnate for decades which will put the entire Singapore economy at risk. Just look at the last Q loss for NCL.

Not sure why you think the above is the 'most likely' scenario.  There are just as many economists who believe that the West will not 'flatline and stagnate for decades' (and, in any event, I would hardly consider NOL's Q1 loss a bellwether for conditions in the next few decades...).  Regardless, again yours is a subjective take based on pessimistic interpretation of about 6-9 months of data.  It is just as likely that the next 6-9 months will be better than the previous ones.  And, over the decades you are talking about, it is even more likely that the additional development of China and India will have enough time to take root and act as alternative markets for a place like Singapore.  Over the next 5-7 years, Singapore's success has as much to do with seeking alternative markets and reducing dependency on the west, which many are of the opinion that it will do quite well...

3. While the economy may not yet hit its bottom, interest rates certainly have. The only way forward is up for interest rates as banks attract private equity to re-capitalise. Singapore will need to follow this trend. This will devastate property affordability. Because Singapore is comming off such a low base rate now. Just a 1% rate increase will cut the amount able to be borrowed by 20 -30%. This will reflect with a corresponding price drop.

Singapore will continue to attract foreign investment capital, which will continue to increase liquidity (it doesnt take much in actual capital flow to expand monetary demand in such a small economy).  As a result, any interest rate adjustments in Singapore will likely lag the US by a period of 6-12 months.  Unless you believe the US will be adjusting rates upwards this year, I would expect this scenario to unfold over a 2-3 year time horizon rather than the next 18 months. 

4. Supply. The supply is 3 X higher than during the last property crash in 97. The supply issue compounds from 2010 onwards.

This is just flatout misinterpretation of statistics.  Oversupply in 1997 was relative to a population of 2.8 million people.  Today it is 4.6 million people (with a higher percentage, as you mention, living in private housing).  If you are in the camp that believes Singapore will emerge with stronger employment growth than most countries (considering a low 3.2% unemployment today) then you will realize that supply overhang is overstated (particularly in prime areas).

5. DPS. This is Singapores subprime on steriods. If it wasnt a problem, the Govt would not have cut it off in 07. This hits the fan in 2010

Fundamentally disagree.  DPS refers to less than 10,000 remaining units.  Of which you can expect 20% will be owner occupied and at least half are either going to complete in cash or have absolutely no problems holding (especially considering recent price run ups).  My bet is many developers can even afford to allow for renegotiation of purchase terms or other concessions for their 'best' customers in the worst case. 

Sure there will be some good deals available on a project by project basis, but to think 2-3,000 units will drag down the entire market of 260,000 units of private housing is beyond paranoid.  Think about it, if the banks really thought this was going to be the case, would they really be increasing valuations to match today's rising purchase prices?  Especially not, considering they only earn about a 1.25% spread on mortgage income...

6.Historical data. The 15 year historical data shows Singapore property to be one of the worst performing asset classes in the world both from a yield and capital gain. Its been said here before that if you bought in 96 you were still underwater even at the peak of 07. The people here who talk about "missing the boat" are just dumb. The boat hasnt been built yet. The agent trolls who bought in 07 will be passing on negative equity to their children.

This is just flat out wrong.  Just like 1996, some who bought in mid 2007 might take a long time to make back their paper equity (although they will be earning at least some rental in the meantime).  Again, this represents maybe about 5-10,000 units out of the entire stock of 260,000.  But to label an entire asset class as one of the worst performing in the world when the other 95% of people who bought into it are doing just fine is plain lunacy.

7. Cultural. The kiasu culture will always mean that the Singapore market will vastly overshoot its value in an upswing. The controlled mindset of the masses by the media etc means they have a lemming mentality that doesnt know its falling off a cliff until they hit the rocks. Like now.

Subjective bias against Singapore.  Completely misapplied in the context of the property market.  Not even worth rebutting, considering same mentality applies everywhere else in the world where human nature = greed.

8. Structural. The structure of the Singapore property market is inverse to most Western markets ie it is 80% public and 20% private. This will change over time as more HDBs are replaced with Condo apartments. There is no lack of space in Singapore just a lack of 1st world accommodation. As this changes over time the relative value of Condos will decrease.

The only reason that the percentage of HDB's relative to private stock will decline is through non-Singaporean population growth (ie. people who are prohibited by law from acquiring HDBs).  This will NOT reduce the total stock of HDBs (which will continue to grow).  You also overlook the fact that the government CANNOT control the property market in prime areas such as Orchard as they do not own land here.  As the urban master plan develops, you will see that fringe prime areas will continue to become more and more expensive, as development encroaches further out from the center.  In general terms, the market structure in Singapore is exactly why private housing will continue to be viewed as a wealth creator, not just by investors but also by the establishment that sets policy. 

9. Affordability. Singapore has one of the worlds highest household debt levels because they are paying too much for housing. 8% of HDB owners are in default. The price of housing has been pushed up by speculation and poor economic management. Now the expat exodus has begun, the ability of the market to repay this debt is at risk.

If there was any correlation between HDB owners in default and private housing prices, you would likely see an even higher default rate among private property owners.  But there isn't.  In fact, out of all 260,000 units of private housing, there were only 18 bank sales in the last month.  Interesting observation in the context of holding power... In any case, there is no expat exodus to speak of.  In fact, you will note that, as compared to 1997 and the SARS period, far more expats continue to stay in Singapore despite the recent global economic turmoil.

10. Global unstability. With a flatline western demand, China will struggle to fill its factories with workers. China faces an un certain future in a low growth world. This will mean more global tax resource will be focused on defence and security. Refer to point 1 which means even less money for building a better world.

I see by the time you got to point 10 that you were really scraping the bottom of the barrel for ideas.  Honestly, after reading your points again, I am actually even more bullish about price trends in the Singapore property market for the next 12 months than I was before.  Obviously we live in an uncertain world, however considering that everyone and their grandmother is working double-time to avoid the so-called Armageddon scenarios, I for one have a little more faith in humanity`s ability to avoid destruction and I certainly would prefer to take the approach that you plan for the worst but don`t let it stop you from living your life. 

The way I look at it, Singapore property SHOULD do well, as it has all the right ingredients, provided the invisible chef in the sky is paying attention to the recipe.  If not, we will all need to run for the hills with that remaining 20% of our portfolio sitting in gold and commodities anyway, so who really cares!
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« Reply #6 on: 03 June 2009, 19:53:45 pm »
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In the immortal words of Mandy Rice Davies, "He would say that, wouldn't he?"
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typical bear BS
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« Reply #7 on: 03 June 2009, 20:21:38 pm »
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Waaaah, the agent knows more than me. Waaaahhhhhh, I just need to bleat sarcastically in hopes that will mask my obvious intellectual shortcomings.

Sorry, try the other thread. This one's for big kids.
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JBA
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« Reply #8 on: 03 June 2009, 21:51:09 pm »
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100% profit over the next 12 months  Wink
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chaos theory
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« Reply #9 on: 03 June 2009, 23:44:12 pm »
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Sure there will be some good deals available on a project by project basis, but to think 2-3,000 units will drag down the entire market of 260,000 units of private housing is beyond paranoid.  Think about it, if the banks really thought this was going to be the case, would they really be increasing valuations to match today's rising purchase prices?  Especially not, considering they only earn about a 1.25% spread on mortgage income...

All of the response is typical REDAS BS. Refer to point 7. Most importantly 2-3000 units is close to 30% of the transacted stock in a boom year, so yes, this DPS spectre will drag down the whole market is a big way.
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is that all?
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« Reply #10 on: 04 June 2009, 8:34:25 am »
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Sure there will be some good deals available on a project by project basis, but to think 2-3,000 units will drag down the entire market of 260,000 units of private housing is beyond paranoid.  Think about it, if the banks really thought this was going to be the case, would they really be increasing valuations to match today's rising purchase prices?  Especially not, considering they only earn about a 1.25% spread on mortgage income...

All of the response is typical REDAS BS. Refer to point 7. Most importantly 2-3000 units is close to 30% of the transacted stock in a boom year, so yes, this DPS spectre will drag down the whole market is a big way.

Is that all you can come up with? Just wait and see how wrong you really are....
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Kubes.SG
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« Reply #11 on: 04 June 2009, 8:44:01 am »
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If this is a competition about who is correct or not, it was I who stated in 2007, and dozens of times since that:  "Singapore prime property prices would decline by at least 20% from their Dec 2007 peak, but April 2009."    I was 100% correct, and was

I am bear when the data, analysis and evidence is bearish.  I am a bullish when the data, analysis and evidence is bearish.  Right now, I am still more bearish.

In comparison, JBA has been quite idiotic with little substance, claiming things like:

o  she just bought another
o  100% profit over the next 12 months   Wink
o  Singapore property prices are increasing
o  Singapore is a world class city
etc

To the point about all the positive news, I am still not there yet.  When GDP, exports, profits, employment levels, etc are all still declining that is bad news.  Just because they are declining at a slow rate does not really mean we have recovered and all is good again.  In times of desperation and panic, it is very easy to grab on to what is still negative news and excitedly overreact positively simply because it was not as bad last quarters news.

We are at the start of a long period of economic adjustment.  There are still significant challenges to the "green shoots" that are so exciting people.

Be cautious.  Be patient.  Protect your assets.
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Media Media
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« Reply #12 on: 04 June 2009, 9:11:59 am »
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Somebody's been reading Kubes' post. I saw the words "irrational exuberance" in the printed local media today  Grin
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thanks for playing
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« Reply #13 on: 04 June 2009, 9:20:54 am »
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The peak was July 2007 not December.

Regardless, property is not correlated with economic data.  You cannot be correct as you have been stating for the past several months that property is continuing to fall when prices have been increasing.  You have not cited any data which suggests with any degree of plausibility that prices will be lower at the end of the year than they were at the beginning.

So everyone is clear, what you are doing is saying that you feel prices SHOULDNT BE increasing.  This is different than being correct in a predictive sense as you PREDICTED that they wouldnt be.

But thanks for playing.

If this is a competition about who is correct or not, it was I who stated in 2007, and dozens of times since that:  "Singapore prime property prices would decline by at least 20% from their Dec 2007 peak, but April 2009."    I was 100% correct, and was

I am bear when the data, analysis and evidence is bearish.  I am a bullish when the data, analysis and evidence is bearish.  Right now, I am still more bearish.

In comparison, JBA has been quite idiotic with little substance, claiming things like:

o  she just bought another
o  100% profit over the next 12 months   Wink
o  Singapore property prices are increasing
o  Singapore is a world class city
etc

To the point about all the positive news, I am still not there yet.  When GDP, exports, profits, employment levels, etc are all still declining that is bad news.  Just because they are declining at a slow rate does not really mean we have recovered and all is good again.  In times of desperation and panic, it is very easy to grab on to what is still negative news and excitedly overreact positively simply because it was not as bad last quarters news.

We are at the start of a long period of economic adjustment.  There are still significant challenges to the "green shoots" that are so exciting people.

Be cautious.  Be patient.  Protect your assets.

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JPL
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« Reply #14 on: 04 June 2009, 10:14:31 am »
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I believe Singapore household debt is still much lower than developed countries like Australia and USA where one can buy a dream home with zero downpayment or use your home like an ATM machine, even though they knew they are paying a premium on interest rate.

Singapore property prices will continue to move up in the long run because of basic supply/demand principle and the government's effort to make singapore a conducive place to work, live and play.

Singapore government will NEVER allow the value of HDB to collapse as many Singaporeans "retirement funds" are stuck in there. plus having learn their lesson in 1997, I honestly doubt HDB will ever  repeat the same mistake of over building them again.

Singapore is not Dubai, this is a country that is built on solid and sustainable fundamentals.

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