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Author Topic: More evidence for Evolution  (Read 3831 times)
Old Mike
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« Reply #15 on: 15 October 2009, 13:06:16 pm »

OM,

1) Observations of neighbouring planets are by all means not prove of earths early composition. If it was, than the assumption would be made that all planets except for earth, would not have evolved through time.

The other planets (with the possible exception of Mars), do not have the correct conditions for life as we know it to evolve.


2) If hydrogen disperses into space, where did the hydrogen come from needed for the presence of liquid water, to support life on earth?

Stars are mostly hydrogen.
When stars burn up much of their hydrogen, they form other elements than helium, and then explode. The oxygen so formed makes water with the hydrogen. Some of the nitrogen makes ammonia. These are incorporated in newly formed planets. No need for hydrogen gas.



3) Religion itself does not state that it is prove, religion cannot be proven. Science however is based of prove. Therefore one can demand FACTUAL statements from a scientist.

Which is what we give you.


4) The complete absence of an ozon layer in early earth would have caused UV radiation to kill any life form.

Not life living a few metres below the surface of the sea. That is where life started.


5) In an atmosphere made up by ammonia & methane it is highly unlikely that thunderstorms the size needed to create enough energy to trigger the formation of amino acids. Then again, IF it did, UV radiation would have killed it off immediately.

Thunderstorms have been observed on Jupiter, which has an ammonia methane atmosphere.
http://www.firstscience.com/site/articles/cornell.asp
Amino acids are not alive so cannot be killed off. See 4)

6) Experiments showing that amino acids can be made from ammonia, methane and electricity happen in strictly controlled environments.
Elements created in that experiment, which are harmful to amino acids, are filtered out immediately. Once cannot explain or show that such filtering took place in early earths atmosphere and how that than should have taken place.

http://books.google.com.sg/books?id=ORylto_MARQC&pg=PA121&lpg=PA121&dq=amino+acids+electric+discharge&source=bl&ots=HWEDbuG4D1&sig=-l526SQIWJUbIhtSZHrBcwFidl8&hl=en&ei=TqnWSpaUOoH94AberKHyCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=amino%20acids%20electric%20discharge&f=false

Read here about the experiment.
Google “Amino Acids Electric Discharge for another 170,000 odd references. No filtering took place. Elements cannot be created in a chemical experiment.


7) Creationists are not alone in their critisism on the experiments. Even in the scientific community it is largely disputed that the experiments represent a likely or even believable term of events. Prsently scientists tend to believe that elements entered earth from sources in space.

Certainly elements entered earth from space and are still doing so.
If you mean periodic organic molecules, or even simple life forms, came to earth from space, Google “Panspermia” there is considerable scientific evidence that this happened and is still happening.
That does not mean that the electric discharge amino acid synthesis did not happen at the same time. It also totally refutes the 6000 year old creationist assumptions.

 This I have taken from your earlier messages, and I quote: "Until photosynthetic life had evolved, there was no oxygen in the atmosphere".
So, if that is the case, where did the oxygen come from, needed to create liquid water which is an absolute necessity for the creation of life?

Answered under 2) above.



In short: An ozon layer could not have formed because the elements for an ozon layer were not present in earths atmosphere.
UV radiation would have had free access and killed off any amino acids formed by the reaction between the elemnts in earths atmosphere, and the garbage elements created by this reaction which are harmful to amino acids, would have floated into space.
These same garbage elements however, are needed for the creation of liquid water, which would have been the only place where amino acids could have survived from UV radiation.

Answered above.




Finally, it is not that scientists found the earth to be of this composition and then proceeded with their experiments.
It is that because with this experiment scientists succeeded to create amino acids, the assumption was made that earths atmosphere must have been composed of these elements.

Not so. The composition of the primitive atmosphere is inferred from the composition of rocks laid down before life appeared on the scene.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1980Natur.288...72A

See, there is also a good thing about being a creationist...for them the problem is solved.

Yes. Just switch off your mind.

Scientists however, with science contradicting "facts" continuously...will be in doubt forever.

Yes .There will always be something new to be learned. We can never fully understand the Mind of God.
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« Reply #15 on: 15 October 2009, 13:06:16 pm »



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so what
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« Reply #16 on: 16 October 2009, 16:19:12 pm »

OM,

Once again you are contradicting yourself.

Here are your statements:

1) The other planets (with the possible exception of Mars), do not have the correct conditions for life as we know it to evolve.

2) "Until photosynthetic life had evolved, there was no oxygen in the atmosphere".

3) Not life living a few metres below the surface of the sea. That is where life started.


Firstly you compare the atmosphere of Jupiter with the atmosphere of earth? However in your first statement you already conceed that Jupiter does not have the right conditions for life as we know it to evolve.
Wouldnt the same conditions apply to early earth then?

Secondly, Jupiter contains liquid water, i.e. H2O which requires the element of oxygen to be present, this is one of the drives behind thunderstorms, which in turn require a process of heating and cooling to take place. Water is the cooling factor.
Your second statement is that there was no oxygen present in the early earths atmosphere, which concludes that thunderstorms would have been very unlikely.

Thirdly, since oxygen was not present in earths atmosphere, how do you explain the presence of liquid water?

Fourthly, your link http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1980Natur.288...72A claims that earths early atmosphere was composed of CH4, NH3, H2, CO and H2S with laser amounts of H2O and CO2

H2S however is created from organic decomposition.
Something that wasnt there yet and therefor makes this link not applicable to this discussion.

And this brings us back to the earlier discussion...where did the nitrogen come from needed to create ammonia?
Have already discussed where the methane could have come from?
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Old Mike
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« Reply #17 on: 16 October 2009, 17:16:49 pm »

“OM,

Once again you are contradicting yourself.”

No I am not. I have never done so on this thread.

“Here are your statements:

1) The other planets (with the possible exception of Mars), do not have the correct conditions for life as we know it to evolve.
2) "Until photosynthetic life had evolved, there was no oxygen in the atmosphere".
3) Not life living a few metres below the surface of the sea. That is where life started.
Firstly you compare the atmosphere of Jupiter with the atmosphere of earth? However in your first statement you already conceded that Jupiter does not have the right conditions for life as we know it to evolve.
Wouldn’t the same conditions apply to early earth then?”


No.
Life as we know it can only exist in the presence of liquid water.
Jupiter’s surface temperature is -130C. Water freezes at 0C. Even mixtures of water and ammonia freeze at temperatures warmer than -130 C.
Therefore the Jovian atmosphere would not be expected to evolve life.


“Secondly, Jupiter contains liquid water, i.e. H2O which requires the element of oxygen to be present; this is one of the drives behind thunderstorms, which in turn require a process of heating and cooling to take place. Water is the cooling factor.
Your second statement is that there was no oxygen present in the early earth’s atmosphere, which concludes that thunderstorms would have been very unlikely.”

I have been unable to find any reference to liquid water on Jupiter. Given the temperatures there that is not surprising.
Please quote your source for this information.
The thunderstorms on Jupiter are caused by liquid methane. Water is not required for a thunderstorm.
There was no elementary oxygen in primitive Earth. It was all combined with hydrogen as water.


“Thirdly, since oxygen was not present in earth’s atmosphere, how do you explain the presence of liquid water?”

The oxygen was formed in a previous star that exploded. It reacted with hydrogen to form water.


“Fourthly, your link http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1980Natur.288...72A claims that earths early atmosphere was composed of CH4, NH3, H2, CO and H2S with laser amounts of H2O and CO2
H2S however is created from organic decomposition.
Something that wasn’t there yet and therefore makes this link not applicable to this discussion.”

Hydrogen sulphide is emitted by volcanoes with no need for organic intervention.
Google Black smokers for more information on life forms using inorganic hydrogen sulphide as an energy source.

“And this brings us back to the earlier discussion...where did the nitrogen come from needed to create ammonia? Have already discussed where the methane could have come from?”

From the same place as the oxygen. Google Stellar Life Cycle for more information.
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so what
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« Reply #18 on: 20 October 2009, 14:04:34 pm »

As requested:

Rain on Jupiter
http://articles.latimes.com/1997-06-06/local/me-768_1_scientists-detect-rain

Jupiter's temperature:

The temperature at the top of Jupiter's clouds is about -230 degrees F (-145 degrees C). Measurements made by ground instruments and spacecraft show that Jupiter's temperature increases with depth below the clouds. The temperature reaches 70 degrees F (21 degrees C) -- "room temperature" -- at a level where the atmospheric pressure is about 10 times as great as it is on Earth. Scientists speculate that if Jupiter has any form of life, the life form would reside at this level. Such life would need to be airborne, because there is no solid surface at this location on Jupiter. Scientists have discovered no evidence for life on Jupiter.

Near the planet's center, the temperature is much higher. The core temperature may be about 43,000 degrees F (24,000 degrees C) -- hotter than the surface of the sun.

http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/jupiter_worldbook.html
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Old Mike
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« Reply #19 on: 20 October 2009, 14:31:26 pm »

Thank you.  Smiley
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scarbowl
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« Reply #20 on: 20 October 2009, 14:47:31 pm »


See, there is also a good thing about being a creationist...for them the problem is solved.
Scientists however, with science contradicting "facts" continuously...will be in doubt forever.
  Yes, I suppose if you're willing to draw a conclusion without evidence then life is much simpler as a creationist.

One significant difference between scientists and creationists is that scientists are willing to change their conclusions when presented with new evidence.  Creationists cling to their beliefs even with the contradicting stories and tales they cite as "proof."   
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Old Mike
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« Reply #21 on: 22 October 2009, 8:26:35 am »

Precisely.
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so what
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« Reply #22 on: 02 November 2009, 23:29:28 pm »

Well, this is an interesting statement, but what if you look at it from this point of view.

Incorrect evidence is false information, and a believe in incorrect evidence is false believe.
This should count for evolutionists and creationists alike.

Granted, creationists seem to be stuck in in their believes as they do not accept new "evidence" as being correct/relevant.
However, an evolutionists believing in incorrect evidence is equally wrong.

The point is that so far we have been talking about "proof", but the reality is that macro evolution (one species evolving into another species), has not been irrefutably been proven.
Even within the group of evolutionist scientists there are huge differences in opinion.
So to post this as proof is to some extend similar to a creationist trying to sell his idea's as proof.

Let me present you a few examples from last week's National Geographic/Discovery productions:
(I am sorry, I cannot recall the exact programs)

A) In the same week programs were aired with regards to where life on earth came from. One scientist claimed the building blocks were imported from outer space, another claimed they fused from existing material already available on earth.

B) I found this one quite interesting. The first law of perpetual motion claims that the total amount of energy in the universe never changes, and is always conserved.
The second law however claims that everything is subject to decay, and some day the universe will indefinitely disappear.
It appears that even in the basic laws of science there is a big contradiction.

C) Which brings me to the claim that the universe is finite. However some scientists believe that the universe is an infinite contracting and expanding fenomena creating a big bang every so many billions of years.

D) Some scientists believe the universe came into being by a big bang, and since then the universe is expanding. Others say however that the universe is the product of a molucular re-coding due to a time-flux, instantly changing the behaviour of the molecules.

Anyway, fact is we simply don't know. The creationists might be wrong, the evolutionists might be wrong.
If you google on "How did life start on earth" basically every evolutionary link you click on tells you: "The short answer is we don't really know how life originated on this planet. There have been a variety of experiments that tell us some possible roads, but we remain in substantial ignorance."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/beta/evolution/how-did-life-begin.html

or

"So let me sum it up for you, however life started we do not know, and we probably will never know, it may be god or some sort of consciousness that exists outside of space and time, but we do know that there was a big explosion of evolution within a short amount of time. "
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_did_life_on_earth_start

Point is, nobody knows if it was extraterrestial import, organic soup, chemical determination or a creator.
Perhaps creationists are telling stories and tales, but the evolutionist who claims it was a big bang followed by organic soup, has an equally small chance his story is correct.

I suppose the bottom-line is the question "was there a creator or was there no creator involved"...ergo...what story do you BELIEVE in?
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