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Author Topic: Sad before Wedding  (Read 7980 times)
The Little Princess
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« on: 18 August 2009, 18:15:07 pm »
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I am Chinese but have never really embraced my culture. Having lived abroad and now in a relationship with a Western man and having friends from all over the world, I am no longer fully in touch with the Chinese values.

I am getting married soon and recently I had a quarrel with my mother because she was upset that I hadn't thought about booking accomodation for the entire family for the wedding (my family live in Malaysia). I would have paid anyway but because I didn't want to create an expectation, I wasn't going to say anything until the bill was presented.

She then brought up the fact that I had never given my parents a cent despite the fact that I "earn so much". (Conveniently forgetting the expensive presents when I visit (admittedly not often) and me giving her every single cent in my savings account after taking out only enough money to cover living expenses for a few weeks when I decided to move abroad for work. And she reminded me that so and so booked the entire resort for their family when they got married....

I am upset of course with her implying that I was an ungrateful daughter but I'd like to find out whether I have broken a tradition or failed an obligation - and whether this would apply in a Western as well as an Eastern culture.

Frankly, my fiance's parents would never have expected us to pay for them to come and they are flying in from Europe and they even offered to contribute towards the wedding expenses, but we said that there was no need although we were grateful for the offer. They are a lot less well-off than my parents. But then again, maybe they are an exception rather than the norm...

What does anyone else think?
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« on: 18 August 2009, 18:15:07 pm »
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Western view
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« Reply #1 on: 18 August 2009, 18:40:24 pm »
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If you and your fiance are materially better off than your parents then I would expect you to pay for them to attend your wedding if it's being held in an expensive (to them) location
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« Reply #2 on: 18 August 2009, 18:58:41 pm »
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I'd be surprised if this is really at the heart of the matter here. I'd be surprised if this is the true reason of their displeasure. If, as you say, you've moved away from the traditional Asian values, chances are your parents won't be too happy with this. My guess is that they're taking this opportunity to voice their general disapproval here with your decision.

Tell us more. How come you never really embraced your culture? What are we missing?



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True Reason
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« Reply #3 on: 18 August 2009, 19:43:35 pm »
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I'd be surprised if this is really at the heart of the matter here. ..... My guess is that they're taking this opportunity to voice their general disapproval here with your decision.


It's not the decision that they disapprove of. What they are really upset about is their daughter's lack of filial piety, or at least what they think is a lack of filial piety.

For the Chinese, filial piety is demonstrated in the form of a grown child's willingness to support his/her parents in their old age. This is so even if the parents are not in need of support or are materially better off than their child. It's not the money that they want. They want their child to show appreciation and gratitude for the multitude of sacrifices that the parents have made for the child. If the child is struggling financially, filial piety is shown by offering token regular allowances to the parents. Often this offer of money will be turned down. If not , it will find its way back to the child through gifts etc because parents understand if their children are going through difficult times.

OP, you are free not to embrace Chinese culture and not to have such expectations of your own children, but you ought to honour your parents in a way that they understand.
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chogie van choonavan
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« Reply #4 on: 18 August 2009, 21:35:21 pm »
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Never thought I'd see the words "Chinese" and "culture" in the same sentence.
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asianperson
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« Reply #5 on: 18 August 2009, 21:44:09 pm »
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You would have paid anyway, as you said, so why not tell her that, and ask her what kind of mother make her own daughter feel guilty by fussing about money?

Trust me, there is no underlying reason for this. This is Asia. It's always about the money.
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a non Chinese asian
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« Reply #6 on: 19 August 2009, 9:02:19 am »
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You can rephrase the above with "This is Chinese. It's always about the money."
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Also Asian
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« Reply #7 on: 19 August 2009, 9:44:07 am »
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That's Asian parents for you. They pay for everything for their children- university fees, piano/violin/ballet classes, overseas holidays, first car, deposit for first home etc. When their children get a job, they expect the royal treatment because of all their sacrifices in the past.

I used to resent my father for not contributing a single cent towards my university education. Now I'm glad I don't owe him.
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Don't denigrate
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« Reply #8 on: 19 August 2009, 10:05:25 am »
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You would have paid anyway, as you said, so why not tell her that, and ask her what kind of mother make her own daughter feel guilty by fussing about money?

Trust me, there is no underlying reason for this. This is Asia. It's always about the money.

No reason to denigrate Asia. It's NOT about the money. It's about showing respect. What kind of daughter is the OP, anyway, for not trying to understand her own mother's point of view? And it sounds to me that by going on about how she gave her parents part of her savings that one time (ooh, how big of her!), the OP herself is fussing about money.
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Ignoramus
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« Reply #9 on: 19 August 2009, 10:07:27 am »
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Never thought I'd see the words "Chinese" and "culture" in the same sentence.

That's because you're an ignoramus.
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scoobydoo
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« Reply #10 on: 19 August 2009, 10:14:30 am »
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I also hear fear in the mother-fear of losing her daughter.  The OP isn't in touch or as committed to the "old ways" as she says and that can be scary to parents.  When I married my husband (who is from a different culture) my parents had a fit and it came down to worrying about the future.  Worrying how life would go for me, how it would affect our relationship, were they on some level losing a daughter, lots of questions like that. 

Op, how does your mother feel about you marrying someone from a different cultural background?
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Mr Porky
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« Reply #11 on: 19 August 2009, 10:19:11 am »
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Parents decide to have children, not the other way around. Your mother knew what costs would be involved. Having children isn't an 'investment' that they can then tap up when they get older.
Just another case of the typical money money money attitude of people around here. Can't just be happy for her daughter, no has to refer to the bank balance as the most important issue and use 'culture' as an excuse to get a free handout.

Cold cold people. No wonder they all look so miserable.
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SG Chinese
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« Reply #12 on: 19 August 2009, 10:29:03 am »
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I'd be surprised if this is really at the heart of the matter here. ..... My guess is that they're taking this opportunity to voice their general disapproval here with your decision.


It's not the decision that they disapprove of. What they are really upset about is their daughter's lack of filial piety, or at least what they think is a lack of filial piety.

For the Chinese, filial piety is demonstrated in the form of a grown child's willingness to support his/her parents in their old age. This is so even if the parents are not in need of support or are materially better off than their child. It's not the money that they want. They want their child to show appreciation and gratitude for the multitude of sacrifices that the parents have made for the child. If the child is struggling financially, filial piety is shown by offering token regular allowances to the parents. Often this offer of money will be turned down. If not , it will find its way back to the child through gifts etc because parents understand if their children are going through difficult times.

OP, you are free not to embrace Chinese culture and not to have such expectations of your own children, but you ought to honour your parents in a way that they understand.


totally agree with what this poster said.

yet, like the 2 posters after have a point too. often that "appreciation" has to materialise (no pun intended) in the form of financial tokens or things that are look obviously connected to money with Asian/Chinese parents.

even with the parents are well-off themselves! gifts of money or gifts like trips where large amounts of moolah is involved are always seen a 'true from the heart' gesture to show one's kids REALLY care.
i guess it indicates if your struggling kid is willing to part with a lot of his or her LIMITED money .... it reads as a HUGE indication of love and filial piety bec = parents (with limited means) also made those sacrifices to educate or care for their kids to the best of their ability as the children were growing up. the equation works out.

that aside, don't even drag the relatives, friends (and all their input and one-upmanship bragging) about how-what their kids are always paying for like plasma TVS, Europe trips, cars etc.
these remarks sometimes set benchmarks for comparison.

what some parents don't realise is:
if one kid has 6 houses already, giving one away is really quite insignificant. this means you only have 5 left.
however, if another kid has trouble struggling to buy even one house, then giving 3 rooms of that house away seems to be to be a larger gesture.


as a Chinese local who believe in filial piety, i can also see how certain set ways  and expectations of how filial piety should be enacted can be irksome.
events like funerals or weddings can sometimes lose their purpose and focus for so many Asian couples. these events sometimes become a 'wayang' (opera) show. a circus of juggling acts to please parents and their expectations of how it should be. with a whole lot of unwanted input from parents' cronies, relatives, even church people et al. all of which add to the general stress of the couple.the diplomatic strategising many also involve a whole bunch of uncooperative relatives who cannot sit with each other which can make fitting numbers at those ten-seater tables very challenging.


funerals:
what? no caterers at a funeral? no hot meals nightly at wakes?
how can? we came for the wake tonight without eating dinner.

ahhhh now the dead man loses face. (his kids are also unfilial)
really? or is it just the living that loses face?

and at the end of the day, what face is there to lose?

up yours. at the end of the day, it's MY money.

eg this filial piety thing. it can be a vicious cycle. the remaining parent living loses face if events like wakes are not done according to (sometimes unrealistic) expectations; and if the kids don't contribute substantially to the funeral expenses or they need to cut whatever costs for pragmatic reasons ... it is all seen as a sign of being unfilial.

what a bunch of bollocks. screw this. go get your own dinner before coming.
what is the whole purpose anyways in visiting the deceased at a wake, or in going to a wedding?

on the flip side:
there are well off Asian kids who have no time for their parents because they are too busy making yet more money.. it's so much easier to pay for their parents' maids, cars, cruises and trips et al and make peace with their conscience that they ARE filial.


OP:
congratulations on your upcoming wedding. all the best!
tread carefully and sensitively. do NOT fall into that trap of comparing your in-laws and your parents. culturally, there have different mindsets even among groups of Chinese parents of dialect groups - they already have different mindsets and expecations). your situation is just more complicated.

inversely look at it this way - your parents may also have done for you what his parents may not have. you may have forgetten or taken that for granted.
esp more so at the end of the day, and this being one of the basic rules of filial piety:
remember these are YOUR parents. remember your upbringing, and it's up to you to negotiate waters tactfully.
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Simple wedding
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« Reply #13 on: 19 August 2009, 10:38:09 am »
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But then again, maybe they are an exception rather than the norm...

What does anyone else think?

I don't think they're the exception - where I'm from, in Europe, most parents would pay their own way and would look upon it as a nice surprise if their child offered to pay for them to fly out.  Of course it would also be looked upon as the 'right' thing to do when you've chosen to get married thousands of miles away from home.  Had you chosen to get married 2 miles up the road from the in-laws then it would be the right thing to do to pay for the immediate family from this continent to fly over.  However, it would only be immediate family who you'd be expected to pay for - aunties, uncles and cousins, should they wish to attend, would normally be expected to make their own way over unless you are completely rich and paid for everyone, but nobody would expect people on normal salaries to pay for any but their own parents.

So as you can see, it differs around the world and what would be seen as the norm where I'm from may be considered somewhat 'tight fisted' by a family elsewhere.  But the thing is, you're not made of money (presumably!) and unless you're marrying into the Hilton family or the Gates family, it would be unrealistic of family members to expect you to pay for everyone and also be able to afford to set up a nice home together.

Where I'm from, unfortunately your mum would also be looked upon as a money grabbing harpie for all her moaning and she's not doing herself any favours by it.  In the west we're more likely to consider love and affection to be worth more from our children than cash unless us, as parents, are penniless and then it would be appreciated if our offspring helped us out.  But that's about it - we pay for meals out when we visit our parents and we treat them to things like flowers and chocolates and the odd bottle of single malt for presents, but we don't pay for their love with cash (which is what filial piety is seen as by many from the west - if they don't need the cash then it shouldn't be expected).

Sadly you're going to experience a lot of differences over the years with your western man, but hopefully at least his family won't be so demanding - it'd be hard if you had to cope with 2 sides of the family all wanting their pound of flesh!

If it was me, I'd book both of you onto the next flight to Vegas and go and get it done with over there - that'd shut your mum up  Wink

Whatever happens, I hope you have a good day, if you haven't had a nervous breakdown by then!
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Asian
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« Reply #14 on: 19 August 2009, 11:10:30 am »
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If you've always been treated like a little princess, why are you surprised that your mother has turned into Empress Dowager when you've grown up. Is giving and taking all about you taking and your parents giving? Remember how your parents spoilt you. No wonder they expect to be spoilt back.
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