Does anyone send their kids to public school?

[another teacher here]

I can see how removing tests makes a teacher's job easier but it's less clear how this benefits the students.

As with many of your previous posts on this topic, you are completely wrong. Teaching to a test is actually very easy. Teaching specific skills that a student just needs to learn and hone in order to regurgitate for test day is simple. Grading tests is also easy as it requires following the instruction booklet (you don't think the teacher actually has to write the papers and then create the marking schedule, do you?) Local school teachers have their tests created by the MOE and they are also marked by external markers - no thinking required!

The school systems that I've worked in where final exams are the only assessment were really stressful at exam time. The entire curriculum focuses on getting the kids through the exam though, so again, there is very little planning or advanced skills required from the teachers. However, schools that constantly assess and expect teachers to address their students in a variety of ways throughout the year, and be accountable for each assessment task - these places are really stressful to work in.

I'm in a school right now that has teachers screaming for the school to bring back an exam based curriculum because it makes their life so much easier!

[yes and no]

There are pros and cons to both systems.

I grew up in an exam based system. One that was based on rote and regurgitation, stringent drilling of basics (some was yes straight memory work for yrs. before we saw the purpose in applying it analytically and logically. ie transform into skills for problem solving).

There are pros and cons to both systems.

I was a child of streaming. Parents knew where you stand. 
From an A class, I dropped to B because my Math and Science grades were not good enough for the top class, despite having straight As for English and Mandarin.

Mandarin was not a given A either ... I had years of tuition for neither of my parents spoke the language. But thanks to that, I comfortably enjoy watching movies (and listening to songs) in Mandarin and Cantonese, read Chinese newspapers easily, and have picked up other Asian languages along the way..

Self esteem damage? Scarred for life?
Guess what? I rose to being the top student in that B class, with some of my testing scores ranking higher than the top people in Class A.

That drop to an easier class did tons for my self esteem instead.

======

My children (and children of other cohorts living abroad) grew up in the other environments. Where h/w for many years (elementary) is maybe a mere half an hour a day or not at all, with hardly any tests or exams. 

Stress? What is that? Self-discipline, endurance, being self-driven? What was that?
There were no deadlines, no projects due, no tests to study for. In general - no sense of urgency or time management either. Everything was rosy and positive. Relaxed, no stress.

To find so many gaps in their basic fundamentals later when at the higher levels, that was scary. What should have been a given was not there.
And to aggravate matters, no good study skills or habits have been inculcated.

Sitting down for anything more than 2 hours to work at something was torturous. If not for the fact, there was Music (and Dance) practice in their lives instilled at home for years, they had almost zilch concept of painstakingly tweaking away at something until it go progressively better.

Worse is to find those children in this system totally bolstered and inflated with self esteem, but seriously lacking any in-depth knowledge when it came down to it..
Yet some were so vocal and opininated, they were often disruptive in class with their off-tangent, off-topic discussions. On top of that, sometimes disrespectful to the teacher.

I can see Scorn's viewpoint.
No h/w tests and exams  = zero accountability, transparency.
For many unionised teachers who are so vocally against testing .. on knowing these people better, you may find many fudge their way through a school year and get by, just because they KNOW they can get away with it. No one is going to find out how much the child actually knows/doesn't know in that school year.

I have also seen 'glamorous, impressive' projects through the years, notably displayed around the time of Parent-Teacher conferences ... where teachers say/show what parents want to hear.

'Impressive' as it might be to see a child-made book fashioned along the same lines of Eric Carle, written in similar fashion (regurgitated written sets the classes painstakingly copied).
Seriously, at the end of the day, what educational goals did that teach for all the time wasted on such a 'creative' project?
All LOOKS good. Until, upon digging deeper, you find out the teacher wrote similar stanza in Eric Carle fashion, the kids chose which one they wanted and painstakingly copied their chosen copy out. Wow now, such creatively.

When I do comparisons, it's no wonder the IB scores where I live is so dismal, compared to Singapore's IB rankings.

[not buying that!]

You've got to be kidding. Your kids receive NO homework, NO assignments, have NO tests - or whatever is don has NO deadlines?? "Everything is positive and rosy?" Oh, come on!

Neither you nor scorn is a teacher, so how on earth do you have the gall to say you think teachers "just fudge their way through a year doing nothing"? What kind of a terrible school have you put your child into - are you going to take any responsibility for that at all? Did you say anything to the school about your child's teacher having zero assessments?! Are you honestly saying your child's school has zero accountability, to parents or to some type of governing board??

As for this:

Worse is to find those children in this system totally bolstered and inflated with self esteem, but seriously lacking any in-depth knowledge when it came down to it..
Yet some were so vocal and opininated, they were often disruptive in class with their off-tangent, off-topic discussions. On top of that, sometimes disrespectful to the teacher.

Are you saying this happened in your rigid school system class? Or you THINK this happened in another class? (Because you could not have been there).

And this:

'Impressive' as it might be to see a child-made book fashioned along the same lines of Eric Carle, written in similar fashion (regurgitated written sets the classes painstakingly copied).
Seriously, at the end of the day, what educational goals did that teach for all the time wasted on such a 'creative' project?
All LOOKS good. Until, upon digging deeper, you find out the teacher wrote similar stanza in Eric Carle fashion, the kids chose which one they wanted and painstakingly copied their chosen copy out. Wow now, such creatively.

Please name the school where you saw the teacher have the kids copy directly from the book and claim it as their own work. Never heard such nonsense.

I know it must be hard for you to understand, but maybe this time the drilling will go in: Singapore's local schools that do IB are highly selective. They take only the best students into their schools. (So you yourself would not have been able to do it.) Not exactly a good comparison.

Perhaps you and scorn would like to point out why, despite the amazing school system here, Singapore still needs to bring in expats to manage and train locals... And why this shows no signs of slowing down in the near future...

[maybenotsobright]

My children (and children of other cohorts living abroad) grew up in the other environments. Where h/w for many years (elementary) is maybe a mere half an hour a day or not at all, with hardly any tests or exams. 

Stress? What is that? Self-discipline, endurance, being self-driven? What was that?
There were no deadlines, no projects due, no tests to study for. In general - no sense of urgency or time management either. Everything was rosy and positive. Relaxed, no stress.

To find so many gaps in their basic fundamentals later when at the higher levels, that was scary. What should have been a given was not there.
And to aggravate matters, no good study skills or habits have been inculcated.

Sitting down for anything more than 2 hours to work at something was torturous.

really? all the people I went to school with had no homework in primary school. Even in high school no homework assignments took 2 hours to do for a single subject - even in year 12. Almost everyone I know went to university and got good jobs. There were only exams at year 12 - but report cards twice a year for every other year of school.

No projects, tests or deadlines? What school is this? Name the school! or is this all made up?

If your friends kids are taking 2 hours to do homework I have to question if they are capable of the study?  Perhaps they are not too bright or have talents in other areas - look at some alternative education choices.

[Isn't it ironic?]

Some posters do not see the irony in their own posts... Since they themselves had tests and exams from the age of 7, and that was the only way that education was measured for them, they assume that any system that doesn't do this must do nothing at all to measure their students' progress. According to this narrow-minded description, schools that do not drill for exams are garbage and anyone educated this way probably lacks knowledge, work ethic or the ability to cope with stress etc. After all, they have not ever had to demonstrate what they know as they didn't have exams... 

What these posters have not grasped is that taking tests does not necessarily mean you are better able to cope with anything, except taking tests. Outside of the realm of education (ie: the real world, where most people are expected to live when they finish school), very few of us ever have to take tests again, and are instead required to use thinking skills and have the ability to get along with others in society etc. These real-life skills are often sorely lacking in people who were educated in systems that test and do little else (why else would the Singapore government be trying desperately to move away from this way of teaching?? Why are top local schools now bringing in IB??)

[scorn]

It's interesting that the teachers who have responded here seem, well, so angry. On one hand you claim your system produces nuanced individuals with superior critical thinking skills but your own arguments are full of venom and devoid of any factual evidence.

As everyone by now knows Singapore consistently scores at or near the top of international tables for education. It's local schools that have embraced IB have completely dominated the global IB results and Raffles is the top entry school for Ivy League.

Sure these schools self-select, as do private schools all over the world. And if the local system was a mere test-taking factory surely Harvard, Princeton, Oxbidge and the rest would cotton on to that and not admit so many Singaporean students.

(Maybe you should send them an email and let them know they're being swindled? Apparently the same scam is being pulled on the gullible UK government which is allowing Singapore law grads to practice there without any screening at all.)

As to the point of why Singapore brings in so many expat managers, the main reasons are:

1) Singapore is a tiny country and the pool of highly skilled labour, while large, is not enough to meet the needs of the hundreds of top-flight MNCs that choose to do business here. Singapore has more MNC headquarters than many countries ten times its size.

2) the government encourages foreign talent to a greater extent than most countries so they are more highly represented

3) Singapore has one of the highest rates of emigration for educated workers in the world, mostly because the high cost of living and shortage of land are large negatives even if you're bringing in big figure salaries

[xenon1]

I can see how removing tests makes a teacher's job easier but it's less clear how this benefits the students.

As with many of your previous posts on this topic, you are completely wrong. Teaching to a test is actually very easy. Teaching specific skills that a student just needs to learn and hone in order to regurgitate for test day is simple. Grading tests is also easy as it requires following the instruction booklet (you don't think the teacher actually has to write the papers and then create the marking schedule, do you?) Local school teachers have their tests created by the MOE and they are also marked by external markers - no thinking required!

The school systems that I've worked in where final exams are the only assessment were really stressful at exam time. The entire curriculum focuses on getting the kids through the exam though, so again, there is very little planning or advanced skills required from the teachers. However, schools that constantly assess and expect teachers to address their students in a variety of ways throughout the year, and be accountable for each assessment task - these places are really stressful to work in.

I'm in a school right now that has teachers screaming for the school to bring back an exam based curriculum because it makes their life so much easier!

Either you are not an experienced teacher or you are just talking nonsense. Do you think its easier to teach students & prepare them to take external exams?  That the teacher's performance will be reflected in the results of her students on papers that are not set by her??
It is extremely stressful.

Having external exams is like you, as a sales manager - having a sales target.  Or a CEO, having a P&L responsibility to shareholders & the Board.  So as a teacher, subjected to "external auditing" by external exams is a measure of the teacher's competence level.

You cannot run a company without any benchmarks (external auditors will ensure your measurements are valid) - Neither can you be teacher & not have standards (you can only have standards if you can measure them).  

I would think a school without any exam standards would be very easy to teach - as a teacher your worth or contribution to students' learning is not measurable.  One can pass off the day with supposedly "noble education" aims that has no outcomes.  How do you ensure your students really learnt them??   In the commercial world, you validate outcomes. Why would it be different in education?  It is no wonder why there are a lot of re thinking about education in the west.  If you take a look at the TIMSS scores for international education benchmarking - local schools are at the top consistently since early 1990s.  And that is not through rote learning - take a look at the sample questions set for mathematics & science in Grade 4 & 8.

[isn't it ironic?]

And here we go again!

PP, are you really so dense that you have assumed that no exams means no assessments? Have you really, actually had the gall (no, stupidity) to compare teachers to sales reps? Do you truly think that schools in other countries have NO governing body? Are you actually trying to say that when there is no external exam, there is no curriculum? (Oh my Gawd....)

You have made these completely inane comments, and despite clearly knowing zilch about education, you have tried to belittle a teacher who clearly does know.

I'd be laughing if it wasn't such a sad indictment on the education you clearly didn't receive.

[did local too]

What the local posters on this thread are not admitting, and that I have seen first hand, is that local parents are not generally pleased with the education system at all. The Ministry of Education is desperately trying to change the way children are assessed and exams are actually being phased out in the early years. There is much greater emphasis on projects and group work across all levels.

A large number of my local friends would put their children into international school given the chance, and the huge numbers of Asian families who take their children overseas for their education clearly have this same way of thinking.

[xenon2]

And here we go again!

PP, are you really so dense that you have assumed that no exams means no assessments? Have you really, actually had the gall (no, stupidity) to compare teachers to sales reps? Do you truly think that schools in other countries have NO governing body? Are you actually trying to say that when there is no external exam, there is no curriculum? (Oh my Gawd....)

You have made these completely inane comments, and despite clearly knowing zilch about education, you have tried to belittle a teacher who clearly does know.

I'd be laughing if it wasn't such a sad indictment on the education you clearly didn't receive.

You are a complete idiot who thinks you know it all. Accreditations require standards that are measurable. Even for colleges/universities. What more, at the school level, if you want to teach IB, you must satisfy the IBO board.  To do that, you must have clear teaching goals that can be measured in exams & tests. Same with any other exam *** at school or university.  Having a curriculum without validating what is being learnt is like making a big speech with hot air, no action.

I dont know where you went to school, but perhaps you do not have any qualifications that are worth any cent since they are seemingly learnt but not validated by any one - since you are such a proponent of non exams. Certainly you dont come from any university that we know around the world?? Perhaps a hamburger college?? Sorry, even that you need some standards they can measure.

Sales, like any commercial role, is based on benchmarks. So do not belittle them. They are the cogwheels of industry. Trade certifications, and any occupations require standards that can be benchmarked to industry e.g Cisco, Sun or any Microsoft, or servicing a Mercedes/Toyota - are they not driving standards of care or service by requiring basic knowledge of the products that comes through certification & exams??

What you dont understand is that you are on a high horse as a "teacher" who completely ignores the real world. You dont deserve to be a teacher.  You are probably those old liberal teachers left from the 60s who make nothing of teaching and probably achieved nothing for their students.

[xenon3]

What the local posters on this thread are not admitting, and that I have seen first hand, is that local parents are not generally pleased with the education system at all. The Ministry of Education is desperately trying to change the way children are assessed and exams are actually being phased out in the early years. There is much greater emphasis on projects and group work across all levels.

A large number of my local friends would put their children into international school given the chance, and the huge numbers of Asian families who take their children overseas for their education clearly have this same way of thinking.

Local parents are never pleased with MOE. Reason is cultural - they will never think MOE or teachers did enough for their children.  The MOE is not desperately trying to change the way of assessment - they are always trying to find new ways to assess.  Case in point - the MOE sent delegations of teachers on study trips to the U.S to learn how mathematics & science were taught - even when the local students are already aceing these exams at international level. I was in one of those trips - a U.S colleague asked why we are still learning from them - my team lead said it was to learn what else we missed out.  Its a cultural trait in the East - always admitting shortcomings (most locals are not are not known to be suave at making litany of achievements - ask & you will receive complaints & what didnt work instead...always nearly negatives) and sometimes making mountains out of issues because in Spore, they always brought out issues way ahead (eg. 4-5 years ahead) before it becomes a problem.

As for project work and Community based programmes (similar to CASS in IB), that has been ongoing for a number of years already.  Intermediate testing/evaluation takes the stress away from one final exam - that has been the norm.  But MOE is always looking for the ideal..



 

[isn\'t it ironic?]

Where did I say I was a teacher?

You have some serious anger issues. You need to calm yourself down. You aren't a teacher either, so perhaps it is time you started talking about something you are actually aware of. I'd like to know where there is a school that has no curriculum, and no measured standards. Who would actually allow that? (Again, are you so dense that you honestly think that?)

I have kids in the IB system. I do know how it works. I work in finance, and have a sister who is a teacher. Believe me, her job is far harder than mine and she gets little thanks for it. Mostly because of twerps like you who think you know how to do it all.

Breathe in a paper bag or something. Totally unnecessary to get so worked up like that.

[xenon4]

you must also be aware that both in MOE as well as in the schools, they are taking the best of 20-30% of each university cohorts - unlike western countries where "those who can't teach". There are many with First class honours from reputable universities around the world as well as local uni, who chose to teach. Many are on scholarships.  MOE takes in some of the best scholars - unlike other education ministries around the world.  Education has the biggest government budget allocated after defence.

Thats very different from public schools in the west and other asian countries where it is a second or last choice career.

Another fact some may not be aware - teachers are specialists in their subject areas, just like in a college/university - they are not generalists as education majors unlike those in western public schools.  They are subject majors (engineering, Physics, mathematics, geography, finance, etc  - basic & postgrad degrees)  first & then they get their postgraduate diplomas in teaching.  Which means they are easily transferable into industry as an engineer or chemist or other professions in banking & finance. Which means those who are not interested in teaching, they are either weaned from the system or they move to greener pastures.

 

[did local too]

Xenon is obviously a local. There is no point having any further discussion on this as the brainwashing has clearly taken hold. Xenon actually believes that the MOE sent a bunch of people overseas just to make sure they didn't miss anything in their curriculum, and the teachers in the US wondered aloud what Singapore could possibly learn from them anyway... This shameful propaganda is a large part of the reason I pulled my kids out of the local system. But xenon will scream till he's blue in the face. After all, you don't win discussions with communication skills, you win them by screaming insults the loudest.  

[xenon5]

Xenon is obviously a local. There is no point having any further discussion on this as the brainwashing has clearly taken hold. Xenon actually believes that the MOE sent a bunch of people overseas just to make sure they didn't miss anything in their curriculum, and the teachers in the US wondered aloud what Singapore could possibly learn from them anyway... This shameful propaganda is a large part of the reason I pulled my kids out of the local system. But xenon will scream till he's blue in the face. After all, you don't win discussions with communication skills, you win them by screaming insults the loudest.  

Yes, just in case you think its hot air - MOE did send delegations from time to time from the 1980s onwards. Some of the high schools that I remember were:

Bronx High
Stuyvesant High school, both in New York.

North Carolina School of Math & Science,
some schools in Virginia,
Thomas Jefferson High & there are many others I cannot remember.

They study not only teaching methods, mentoring in subject areas, science research & enrichment but also school administration & principal leadership style & school strategies.