Marriage

[Very committed]

My partner and I have this discussion often. I'm from a liberal country where marriages are awarded little or no additional 'benefits' than those living together for more than two years. Commitment ceremonies are common. Gay and straight partnerships are given equal footing in society.

My partner, on the other hand, is Asian and he thinks that we should get married. I'm fine with both. However, I see little point in throwing thousands of dollars away on a wedding just to make a scene of our commitment (which anyone who truly loves and knows us, sees regularly anyway) and I do not understand this obsession at all.

I have to say that I find it ironic that in this marriage-obsessed, super-conservative part of the world, I have never met so many people who are cheating, have cheated or know their spouse cheats. All these marriages and it apparently means very little when it all comes down to it. This kind of behaviour is abhorrent to me, and I can honestly say it would have very little support in most social circles where I'm from.

[to vulcan]

There's nothing 'crazy' about religion.  I think that THIS statement is CRAZY:

"...This is a stupid statement.  Religion is to blame for more deaths than probably anything else, more persecution, "forced" marriages to make the family look good.  You want me to go on?  This all continues to this day, it isn't some middle ages thing..."

You may as well say believing in Santa, the tooth fairy or fairies at the bottom of your garden is not crazy.  Probably more believers in Santa than God these days.  Some of don't need a crutch to deal with the real world.

Really??!?  Religion is the cause for MOST deaths, across the board??!?

I think that's insane!

That is evidently because you can't deal with the real world without something else to keep you going.  Think of the number of wars that were religion based.  Maybe not most, that would likely be natural causes, but after that is likely is.  You may think it insane but then your thought process is severely limited.

Secularism is not a healthy development.  It is used to excuse much behavior that is immoral and will ultimately lead to humankind's demise if left unchecked. 

 Have you not noticed that 'Western' societies have myriad social problems (the gap between rich and poor, single parenthood and resulting maladjusted adults that create a burden on society, distractions caused by placing emphasis on issues like gay marriage and animal rights) that just did not exist before we decided that 'liberalizing' our mores was OK?

You have a total lack of knowledge of history.  If you refer to the last hundred years then maybe, go back any further and you will find you are completely and totally wrong on every point.  Wealth gaps were wider, you ever heard of "slaves" (often employed by Christian god-fearing hypocrites like yourself), the average "gentleman" slept where he felt like.  You are totally wrong - again.

Have you ever considered why exactly it is that marriage enjoys its special status in societies all over the World?  It is not by accident that it has been an institution that has lasted untold thousands of years.  It provide the most solid foundation for society!

Tradition, these days pretty much nothing more.  Did you read the other post about peasants?

As for religion killing people, taking up isolated cases of murderers who use religion as an excuse to kill, torture and otherwise cause evil is a great injustice to the overwhelming good that it has produced throughout history and today.

It isn't the odd isolated case.  Damn you are thick.  WWII (a minor skirmish I suppose) wiped out 2/3 or the jews on the planet.  Today, why to chemical Ali just get hung by the neck until dead?  Other recent issues, Ireland, Israel/Palestine, sorry, doesn't feature to an idiotic seppo because it didn't happen on your turf, oops, forgot 9/11 so the rest of the world now jumps through hoops.  Go back in history and it gets worse.  We are not talking pig heads in a few mosques here.

I am appalled and it is a sad state of affairs if the previous two poster's attitudes toward religion have become the mainstream opinion on religion.

Who cares, you are an idiot who once again has decided he is right before listening to anyone else.

[Very committed]

 Have you not noticed that 'Western' societies have myriad social problems (the gap between rich and poor, single parenthood and resulting maladjusted adults that create a burden on society, distractions caused by placing emphasis on issues like gay marriage and animal rights) that just did not exist before we decided that 'liberalizing' our mores was OK?

Have you ever considered why exactly it is that marriage enjoys its special status in societies all over the World?  It is not by accident that it has been an institution that has lasted untold thousands of years.  It provide the most solid foundation for society!

Come on... Lack of marriage has led to these issues? Are you being serious?

[Vulcanl]

“…You may as well say believing in Santa, the tooth fairy or fairies at the bottom of your garden is not crazy…”

Nowhere near the same thing.  It is not possible to have a personal relationship with any of these

“…  Some of don't need a crutch to deal with the real world…”

Most of us do

“… You may think it insane but then your thought process is severely limited…”

The concept is so going over your head that it is you that is NOT thinking about it clearly.  Just like your body, the soul needs to be nourished or else it will die.  This is what religion helps you to do

“…You have a total lack of knowledge of history.  If you refer to the last hundred years then maybe, go back any further and you will find you are completely and totally wrong on every point.  Wealth gaps were wider, you ever heard of "slaves" (often employed by Christian god-fearing hypocrites like yourself), the average "gentleman" slept where he felt like.  You are totally wrong - again…”

Go to ANY point in history and religion is there, living and breathing.  Those instances you describe were fertile ground for religion to flourish!

“…Tradition, these days pretty much nothing more…”

You are wrong.  Tell me, how would you feel if you were in your 50s and your partner decided that they had enough and wanted to try other pastures?  Being married is a barrier (legal and otherwise) to ‘just walking away.’  Again, there is a COMMITMENT. 

“…It isn't the odd isolated case.  Damn you are thick.  WWII (a minor skirmish I suppose) wiped out 2/3 or the jews on the planet..”

Hitler killed Jews because they were not ETHNICALLY pure!!!  Religion had nothing to do with it!!!  (and you’re calling ME thick?!??!)

“… Today, why to chemical Ali just get hung by the neck until dead?...”

OK, so you are claiming that Saddam Hussein and his thugs were on a RELIGIOUS rampage?  Where DO YOU GET THIS FROM?!??!?

“… Other recent issues, Ireland, Israel/Palestine, sorry, doesn't feature to an idiotic seppo because it didn't happen on your turf, oops, forgot 9/11 so the rest of the world now jumps through hoops.  Go back in history and it gets worse.  We are not talking pig heads in a few mosques here…”

I have no idea what you are trying to state here.  Please clarify

“…Who cares, you are an idiot who once again has decided he is right before listening to anyone else…”

And in your white-hot, spittle-spewing frustration you resort to name-calling.  You lose

“…Come on... Lack of marriage has led to these issues? Are you being serious?...”

Open your mind for a moment.  Marriage has up to now provided the solid foundation for our civilized society.  Men were taught to be men, and girls were taught to be ladies.  Authority was respected.  A loving marriage results in a loving home, provides a safe haven, a place to take refuge from a difficult World.  Trust is established, and children learn how to trust others. 

Has a lack of marriage led to the societal issues I described?  Unquestionably, emphatically - Yes!

[to vulcan]

“…You may as well say believing in Santa, the tooth fairy or fairies at the bottom of your garden is not crazy…”

Nowhere near the same thing.  It is not possible to have a personal relationship with any of these

Sure it is, my kids get presents and stuff from them, even mail.  Never had Jesus phone up for a chat though.  Having a relationship with a non-existent entity you have never seen or spoken to would, in any other arena than religion, get you sectioned.

“…  Some of don't need a crutch to deal with the real world…”

Most of us do

“… You may think it insane but then your thought process is severely limited…”

The concept is so going over your head that it is you that is NOT thinking about it clearly.  Just like your body, the soul needs to be nourished or else it will die.  This is what religion helps you to do

Nope, more obviously over yours.  You again work from the assumption you are correct and extrapolate from there rather than start with an open mind.

“…You have a total lack of knowledge of history.  If you refer to the last hundred years then maybe, go back any further and you will find you are completely and totally wrong on every point.  Wealth gaps were wider, you ever heard of "slaves" (often employed by Christian god-fearing hypocrites like yourself), the average "gentleman" slept where he felt like.  You are totally wrong - again…”

Go to ANY point in history and religion is there, living and breathing.  Those instances you describe were fertile ground for religion to flourish!

Whatever, you previous assertion was still WRONG.

“…Tradition, these days pretty much nothing more…”

You are wrong.  Tell me, how would you feel if you were in your 50s and your partner decided that they had enough and wanted to try other pastures?  Being married is a barrier (legal and otherwise) to ‘just walking away.’  Again, there is a COMMITMENT. 

I don't disagree that obstacles should be placed in the way to ensure people are sure before they end a committment (I do think of marriage as a committment just don't care about god).  That said if people are unhappy and wish to leave they should be able to.

“…It isn't the odd isolated case.  Damn you are thick.  WWII (a minor skirmish I suppose) wiped out 2/3 or the jews on the planet..”

Hitler killed Jews because they were not ETHNICALLY pure!!!  Religion had nothing to do with it!!!  (and you’re calling ME thick?!??!)

Yeah dumbo, every other religion is pure, obviously.

“… Today, why to chemical Ali just get hung by the neck until dead?...”

OK, so you are claiming that Saddam Hussein and his thugs were on a RELIGIOUS rampage?  Where DO YOU GET THIS FROM?!??!?

You remember the protestant vs catholic thing (Ireland, as an example, you know the terrorism you lot helped fund until shit landed on your doorstep).  How about sunni and shiite muslims?  Yes retard, he chemically gassed the wrong type of muslim.

“… Other recent issues, Ireland, Israel/Palestine, sorry, doesn't feature to an idiotic seppo because it didn't happen on your turf, oops, forgot 9/11 so the rest of the world now jumps through hoops.  Go back in history and it gets worse.  We are not talking pig heads in a few mosques here…”

I have no idea what you are trying to state here.  Please clarify

The US has an unpleasant history of shoving it's head in the sand when it's allies are in trouble until something happens on your own turf.  Think WWII before pearl harbour, think terrorism in general until 9/11.  Anyway, this is off topic (my apologies) but you may wish to think about it at some point, especially since you sponsored rather a lot of it.

“…Who cares, you are an idiot who once again has decided he is right before listening to anyone else…”

And in your white-hot, spittle-spewing frustration you resort to name-calling.  You lose

More bull, you lose as you have no idea what you are on about or so blinkered you can't see anything else.  Also forgot, you are now arbiter of what is an insult and what is not.....

“…Come on... Lack of marriage has led to these issues? Are you being serious?...”

Open your mind for a moment.  Marriage has up to now provided the solid foundation for our civilized society.  Men were taught to be men, and girls were taught to be ladies.  Authority was respected.  A loving marriage results in a loving home, provides a safe haven, a place to take refuge from a difficult World.  Trust is established, and children learn how to trust others. 

Has a lack of marriage led to the societal issues I described?  Unquestionably, emphatically - Yes!

No it has not, though it is related.  Marriage is a way to commit, it isn't the only one.  The general mindset which causes a drop in both is to blame, the marriage reductions is a symptom not a cause.  This is almost certainly more than you can comprehend.

[Very committed]

Open your mind for a moment.  Marriage has up to now provided the solid foundation for our civilized society.  Men were taught to be men, and girls were taught to be ladies.  Authority was respected.  A loving marriage results in a loving home, provides a safe haven, a place to take refuge from a difficult World.  Trust is established, and children learn how to trust others. 

Has a lack of marriage led to the societal issues I described?  Unquestionably, emphatically - Yes!

Vulcan, I completely disagree. Look at Singapore as an example. Marriage is very much favoured here. And most of the AIDS campaigns are targetting who? Married men. On the outside, it's all roses and behind closed doors, hubby is off on his gold trips and business trips and sleeps around on his wife.

Look at Indonesia and the Philippines: two very religious countries with a strong belief in the sanctity of marriage. Not exactly model societies.

People can and do walk out of marriages. In many countries, it is not any easier to walk away from a long term relationship.

I think the key point in your post is LOVING marriage. But a committed relationship can be just as fulfilling and safe. I know many families where the parents are deeply committed to one another and the children have grown up with a wonderful example of a loving family home without having to be legally married to do so.

What makes your way so much better? Considering the tone your posts normally take on how we are all caught up in the trappings of life and are not seeing what is real and what is superfluous nonsense (all of which I agree with), I'm surprised that you think opting to commit to someone without having to go through a process of marriage (and the ridiculous shows of garish spending that normally go with it) is not a valid option if it suits the people involved.

[Vulcanl]

"...Having a relationship with a non-existent entity you have never seen or spoken to would, in any other arena than religion, get you sectioned..."

And here I was thinking we were having an intelligent discussion....once again I am disappointed.  This is the whole point, magpie - GOD LIVES 

"...You again work from the assumption you are correct and extrapolate from there rather than start with an open mind..."

Of COURSE I AM CORRECT about my belief in God!  Certain things have come to pass in my life because of him.  There is nothing more open minded about "believing without seeing"  This is what you continue miss!!  It is YOU who do not have an open mind about this....

"...I don't disagree that obstacles should be placed in the way to ensure people are sure before they end a committment (I do think of marriage as a committment just don't care about god)..."

Fair enough - I can meet you halfway here

"...Yeah dumbo, every other religion is pure, obviously..."

You will earn my respect when you desist from insulting me.  You lose again.

"...You remember the protestant vs catholic thing (Ireland, as an example, you know the terrorism you lot helped fund until shit landed on your doorstep)..."

OK, so how is this the fault of religion?  And what about all of the other places on Earth where peoples of different religion coexist in peace?  You cannot take isolated situations and extrapolate those to make your case.  Try again

"...How about sunni and shiite muslims?  Yes retard, he chemically gassed the wrong type of muslim..."

More insults...you lose.  AGAIN

"...The US has an unpleasant history of shoving it's head in the sand when it's allies are in trouble until something happens on your own turf.  Think WWII before pearl harbour, think terrorism in general until 9/11..."

I agree with you

"...Anyway, this is off topic (my apologies) but you may wish to think about it at some point, especially since you sponsored rather a lot of it..."

Blowback...I agree with you.  Believe me, we (Americans) are paying the price

"...you are now arbiter of what is an insult and what is not....."

No, I just despise cowards who can't make their case logically and resort to insults as a cop-out

"...The general mindset which causes a drop in both is to blame, the marriage reductions is a symptom not a cause.  This is almost certainly more than you can comprehend..."

I could see a way I could agree with you, but being condescending is not the way to do it

[cynical99]

I hate to say this. I'm female and Asian and I've been hit on by a variety of White guys, including those who are married or in domestic partnerships. I also know of Western guys who head straight to Orchard Towers once their wife is out of town, or the girlie bars when they're on a business trip. It has little to do with how much they love their wives/partners or how happy they are in the relationship. It's down to the guy's PERSONALITY. Some guy won't hesitate to sleep with an attractive stranger if they think their wives won't find out. Doing the right thing is simply not something they understand. They care about no one but themselves.

Take time to choose the right guy. A leopard never changes its spots.

[Got morals]

To cynical,

Do you honestly think this is a 'white guy' phenomenon? Are you trying to say that Asian men don't do this?

Asia is one of the most immoral places I have ever lived when it comes to infidelity. Not to say it doesn't happen in other parts of the world, but here it is just so blatant. There are women in my workplace who have no problem with throwing themselves at men knowing full well the guy has a family. It's unbelievable, and would be deemed harassment in the reverse scenario.

[Vulcanl]

Very Committed,

"...Vulcan, I completely disagree. Look at Singapore as an example. Marriage is very much favoured here. And most of the AIDS campaigns are targetting who? Married men. On the outside, it's all roses and behind closed doors, hubby is off on his gold trips and business trips and sleeps around on his wife..."

Clearly these men are not taking their vows seriously and perhaps should have never married in the first place.  It doesn't take anything away from the institution of marriage, though.  We are human and we make mistakes.  Some learn from those mistakes and do better, others don't.  It just means they are not as focused on the commitment as they should be

"...Look at Indonesia and the Philippines: two very religious countries with a strong belief in the sanctity of marriage. Not exactly model societies..."

Not sure this is the best example...I don't think their lack of progress is connected to the institution of marriage

"...People can and do walk out of marriages..."

Yes, it means they have failed.   

"...In many countries, it is not any easier to walk away from a long term relationship...."

Perhaps, but in the totality it is harder to just 'walk away' from marriage, especially when there are children involved (remember, the only reason to get married in the first place is because you want to have children)

"...I think the key point in your post is LOVING marriage.."

Indeed

"... But a committed relationship can be just as fulfilling and safe..."

No way I could ever agree with you on this.  It's just not the same, again especially when children are involved.  Being a parent is a whole different universe.  You care for your children more than anything else in the World, they become YOUR WORLD.  Then there is the fact that husband and wife together watch them grow up and eventually make their own way in the World.  I am immensely enjoying marriage so far!

"...What makes your way so much better?..."

The commitment between a man and a woman that is LIKE NO OTHER.  The best way I can explain it, is: what makes Gold so precious?  Inherently it has no value (not even industrial).  But is rare, and PRECIOUS.  That is marriage.  It is unique and full of challenges...you are connected to someone else for the rest of your life

"...Considering the tone your posts normally take on how we are all caught up in the trappings of life and are not seeing what is real and what is superfluous nonsense (all of which I agree with)..."

Marriage is real...'living together' is superfluous

"...I'm surprised that you think opting to commit to someone without having to go through a process of marriage (and the ridiculous shows of garish spending that normally go with it)..."

I am not a believer in gaudy and ostentatious displays of any kind.  Marriage is the lifelong commitment, not the party you have where you invite all the guests and dress up

"... is not a valid option if it suits the people involved..."

Well, marriage is not for everyone.  That much I will grant

[Very committed]

Ok, I suddenly feel like I am 'talking' to a very young man... Sorry to sound condescending, but I really think you are being overly naive. And quite judgmental.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this.

[to vulcan]

"...Having a relationship with a non-existent entity you have never seen or spoken to would, in any other arena than religion, get you sectioned..."

And here I was thinking we were having an intelligent discussion....once again I am disappointed.  This is the whole point, magpie - GOD LIVES 

You can never have an inteligent conversation with a religious zealot.  I have more physical proof of santa than you have of god.  Please rationally explain the difference between the two.

Alternatively go to Raffles place and declare out loud you saw some old dude turning apple juice into tiger beer for everyone working in the CBD.  He then proceeded to provide spatial awareness to everyone so they looked where they are going and all car indicators in singapore suddenly began working.  See where you end up.  Obviously that is all entireyl different though.  Again, explain why.

"...You again work from the assumption you are correct and extrapolate from there rather than start with an open mind..."

Of COURSE I AM CORRECT about my belief in God!  Certain things have come to pass in my life because of him.  There is nothing more open minded about "believing without seeing"  This is what you continue miss!!  It is YOU who do not have an open mind about this....

Nope, you have been indoctrinated.  I can believe in the tooth fairy without ever seeing it, clearly I'm therefore open minded rather than just mad.  Don't think so.

"...I don't disagree that obstacles should be placed in the way to ensure people are sure before they end a committment (I do think of marriage as a committment just don't care about god)..."

Fair enough - I can meet you halfway here

Fine.

"...Yeah dumbo, every other religion is pure, obviously..."

You will earn my respect when you desist from insulting me.  You lose again.

No you lose again, you insult people in another thread but claim it is not an insult so your own rules don't apply.  In the same vein I do not believe calling you dumbo is an insult so try and debate the issues instead of your usual cop outs.

"...You remember the protestant vs catholic thing (Ireland, as an example, you know the terrorism you lot helped fund until shit landed on your doorstep)..."

OK, so how is this the fault of religion?  And what about all of the other places on Earth where peoples of different religion coexist in peace?  You cannot take isolated situations and extrapolate those to make your case.  Try again

Err where?

Lets take some local examples.  Northern Malaysia/Thai border, err - nope.  Phillippines - err, nope.  Bali - err nope.  Want to look further?  Middle east/Israel, err nope.

For some reason you seem to dismiss these things as small local skirmishes.  Throughout pretty much all recorded history it has been the main reason people kill each other.

"...How about sunni and shiite muslims?  Yes retard, he chemically gassed the wrong type of muslim..."

More insults...you lose.  AGAIN

No I don't, you do.  More cop out crap from you.  Answer the point.  Oh you can't so you cop out again.  YOU LOSE.

"...The US has an unpleasant history of shoving it's head in the sand when it's allies are in trouble until something happens on your own turf.  Think WWII before pearl harbour, think terrorism in general until 9/11..."

I agree with you

Nice.

"...Anyway, this is off topic (my apologies) but you may wish to think about it at some point, especially since you sponsored rather a lot of it..."

Blowback...I agree with you.  Believe me, we (Americans) are paying the price

Not undeservedly.  Never mind, in 20 years Hollywood will make a bunch of movies about how you saved the world, don't worry, history will get retrospectively fixed (again).

"...you are now arbiter of what is an insult and what is not....."

No, I just despise cowards who can't make their case logically and resort to insults as a cop-out

What, you mean like as in failing to answer points and saying "you lose" when anyone upsets someone?  Interesting stance.

"...The general mindset which causes a drop in both is to blame, the marriage reductions is a symptom not a cause.  This is almost certainly more than you can comprehend..."

I could see a way I could agree with you, but being condescending is not the way to do it

Have you checked you subsequent post re: condescension?

[oh dear oh dear]

More insults...you lose.  AGAIN

'to vulcan' did lose their temper a bit but to dismiss their comment completely seems like you were just looking for an excuse because you didn't have an answer for it.

You can't discuss these things with people who are blinded by religion 'to vulcan', they haven't got the answers for most things so they just make it all up and say things like 'it's God's way' or 'God works in mysterious ways' and other mumbo jumbo.



Back to marriage though - interestingly, in our family, all the people who lived separately and then got married in church (in the eyes of God if you like), are now divorced and those who got married in registry offices and who'd been living together previously are still married.

Funny old thing experience isn't it.

[cynical99]

To cynical,

Do you honestly think this is a 'white guy' phenomenon? Are you trying to say that Asian men don't do this?

Asia is one of the most immoral places I have ever lived when it comes to infidelity. Not to say it doesn't happen in other parts of the world, but here it is just so blatant. There are women in my workplace who have no problem with throwing themselves at men knowing full well the guy has a family. It's unbelievable, and would be deemed harassment in the reverse scenario.

So it's entirely fault of these women? And none of the responsibility is to be taken by the men?

If you have read the context of my reply, I was writing in response to Very Committed. Infidelity is as common if not more among Western men as it is with Asian men, including those in "committed" domestic partnerships.

Personally, I see adultery as more common among Expats. Asian men without looks or money don't get a second glance. But Western men without these advantages still get women coming up to them- because they're somehow seen to be "rich" and "higher class". The average blokes back home tend to be most suspectible. Why is that surprising? If you've never gotten second looks before and you're suddenly innundated with sexy women crawling all over you, wouldn't you be tempted?

[not worth it]

Of COURSE I AM CORRECT about my belief in God!

Perfectly demonstrates why you are not worth talking to.  Shouting you are right before even looking at the point.  Blinkered fool.