Marriage

[Vulcanl]

“…Ok, I suddenly feel like I am 'talking' to a very young man... Sorry to sound condescending, but I really think you are being overly naive. And quite judgmental.  I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this…”

Fair enough

“…I have more physical proof of santa than you have of god.  Please rationally explain the difference between the two…”

Your argument comes down to ‘physical proof.’  If I were able to suggest three things that you would undeniably, unquestionably admit were REAL, but you could not prove any of them, will you admit that the lack of physical proof is insufficient basis to write off the existence of God?

“…No you lose again, you insult people in another thread but claim it is not an insult so your own rules don't apply...”

Now you’re making things up.  Please show me where I have done this

“…Lets take some local examples.  Northern Malaysia/Thai border, err - nope.  Phillippines - err, nope.  Bali - err nope.  Want to look further?  Middle east/Israel, err nope…”

You have not substantiated your assertion in any way.  EXPLAIN!

“…Throughout pretty much all recorded history it has been the main reason people kill each other…”

Bullshit.  Make your case.  You haven’t done so yet.  Address this point:

And what about all of the other places on Earth where peoples of different religion coexist in peace?  You cannot take isolated situations and extrapolate those to make your case.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the World’s major religions.  OVERWHELMINGLY the legitimate teachers of each espouse the basic morality of man (do unto others as you would have them do unto you, thou shalt not kill, the meek shall inherit, etc).  You will not get away with extreme statements.  Religion has resulted in MUCH greater good than evil to man.   And where evil has been done in the name of religion, it was by MAN and not by God

“…What, you mean like as in failing to answer points and saying "you lose" when anyone upsets someone?  Interesting stance…”

I address ALL points raised, and will admit when I am wrong.  You need to logically and reasonably make your case, though.  When you resort to insults you have lost.  These are the rules when engaging me

[to vulcan]

“…Ok, I suddenly feel like I am 'talking' to a very young man... Sorry to sound condescending, but I really think you are being overly naive. And quite judgmental.  I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this…”

Fair enough

“…I have more physical proof of santa than you have of god.  Please rationally explain the difference between the two…”

Your argument comes down to ‘physical proof.’  If I were able to suggest three things that you would undeniably, unquestionably admit were REAL, but you could not prove any of them, will you admit that the lack of physical proof is insufficient basis to write off the existence of God?

Sure.  This is however the wrong way round.  I'm now supposed to admit I haven't proved that a non-physical unevidenced thing doesn't exist.  Fine, don't try spiining this into some sort of evidence god does exist though.

Why don't you try proving pluto isn't made of green cheese.  You can't can you?

“…No you lose again, you insult people in another thread but claim it is not an insult so your own rules don't apply...”

Now you’re making things up.  Please show me where I have done this

I'll find it later, it is in the property thing from last week I think where you suddenly denied insulting people as you didn't deem what you said was an insult.

“…Lets take some local examples.  Northern Malaysia/Thai border, err - nope.  Phillippines - err, nope.  Bali - err nope.  Want to look further?  Middle east/Israel, err nope…”

You have not substantiated your assertion in any way.  EXPLAIN!

Yeah sure, I've named a bunch of places, you have named nothing just made assertions with no facts whatsoever but even then it is still up to me to explain to a closed mind something they will never accept.  Get a grip or post some evidence yourself.  Presumably Abu Sayyaf, Al Qaeda, IRA etc don't have a religious agenda.  Sure thing.

“…Throughout pretty much all recorded history it has been the main reason people kill each other…”

Bullshit.  Make your case.  You haven’t done so yet.  Address this point:

Explain yourself, you have said nothing of note.

Fine, 9/11, crusades, Irish divide, Israel and pretty much the rest of the middle east.  Ever hear of the inquisition, numerous civil wars around Europe.  You really are dumb.  At what point are you going to actually post anything that can be substantiated.  You have received plenty but just shout bullshit in return.

And what about all of the other places on Earth where peoples of different religion coexist in peace?  You cannot take isolated situations and extrapolate those to make your case.

Name some.  Baseless assertion, again, I forgot though, you expect to be given evidence rather than give it.  Name Singapore and you really are an idiot.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the World’s major religions.  OVERWHELMINGLY the legitimate teachers of each espouse the basic morality of man (do unto others as you would have them do unto you, thou shalt not kill, the meek shall inherit, etc).  You will not get away with extreme statements.  Religion has resulted in MUCH greater good than evil to man.   And where evil has been done in the name of religion, it was by MAN and not by God

Cool get out of jail free card.  God gets credit for good stuff.  If it's bad it wasn't God's fault after all.  In your world however God created man so if man does evil then sorry mate, still God's fault.

You are also being a hypocrite.  Sure, only a small minority of muslims want to eradicate the US.  On the other hand you happily tar everyone with the same brush when only a minority are to blame in, for instance, trading.....

“…What, you mean like as in failing to answer points and saying "you lose" when anyone upsets someone?  Interesting stance…”

I address ALL points raised, and will admit when I am wrong.  You need to logically and reasonably make your case, though.  When you resort to insults you have lost.  These are the rules when engaging me

I can't see a single point in this thread you have addressed other than various themes around asserting god is good and Vulcan is right.  Evidence please.....

[got morals]

To cynical,

Do you honestly think this is a 'white guy' phenomenon? Are you trying to say that Asian men don't do this?

Asia is one of the most immoral places I have ever lived when it comes to infidelity. Not to say it doesn't happen in other parts of the world, but here it is just so blatant. There are women in my workplace who have no problem with throwing themselves at men knowing full well the guy has a family. It's unbelievable, and would be deemed harassment in the reverse scenario.

So it's entirely fault of these women? And none of the responsibility is to be taken by the men?

If you have read the context of my reply, I was writing in response to Very Committed. Infidelity is as common if not more among Western men as it is with Asian men, including those in "committed" domestic partnerships.

Personally, I see adultery as more common among Expats. Asian men without looks or money don't get a second glance. But Western men without these advantages still get women coming up to them- because they're somehow seen to be "rich" and "higher class". The average blokes back home tend to be most suspectible. Why is that surprising? If you've never gotten second looks before and you're suddenly innundated with sexy women crawling all over you, wouldn't you be tempted?

Sexy women crawling all over you? Hahaha! Surely, you mean cheap, immoral women who think stealing a husband and father away is an acceptable practice. I can't tell you how many times I've seen this here, and yes, the women is largely to blame. They are relentless gold-diggers with a total lack of morals.

Perhaps you are seeing a higher rate of adultery among expats because of the places you hang out and the types of people you associate with. Actually your post says more about you than it does about "expat men"... I certainly do not think it is a mostly Western habit, as most Western men know they would lose everything if their wives got wind of their indiscretions. On the other hand, I've had more than one Asian colleague crying in the office over her husband's inability to keep his (Asian) pecker in his pants - and they all stay with these men.

Some Asian cultures turn a blind eye to infidelity, like Japan and Korea. Often the women there know their husbands have mistresses and say nothing. This would be very unusual in a western country.

[chitown]

Men cheat.  Women cheat less than men.  And I believe that once a cheater, always a cheater. It's likely because we [men] are able to compartmentalize and we tend to grow up with a greater sense of entitlement than our sisters.   We are better  able to rationalize our dishonest behavior. 

I tend not to think this depends a lot on race as the PP seems to be insinuating.  For example, local Singapore men tend to cheat on their wives less; I'm willing to assert that it is more dependent on their lack of financial opportunity.   You're not going to squander your house payment or your CPF at the KTV or some other extracurricular activity - though it does happen.  And Asian men who have money? ...I'm guessing they feel entitled to having a mistress it's one of the trappings of their "hard earned" wealth.   

I don't think western men are any different in these respects.  They'll go to places like Orchard Towers or Brix when they visit places like Singapore.  Back home, they'll have something on the side if they can afford it (think Tiger Woods and John Edwards).  Particularly if they felt either their wife or the mistress would tolerate sharing them in a relationship.  Even when the wife and mistress are unwilling, men will often cheat on their wife and lie to the mistress about the state of his marriage.

The only time I observe marriage as having a strong role in deterring this behavior is when a) the marriage is new - few men in their right minds will cheat on their wife when they are newlyweds and/or b) the man has a strong enough sense of character and integrity to be faithful to the woman he's in the relationship with.  But I don't think that its the marriage per se, its his commitment to his partner.  A man doesn't stop being being a cheater on his wedding day.   

[Vulcanl]

“…Sure.  This is however the wrong way round.  I'm now supposed to admit I haven't proved that a non-physical unevidenced thing doesn't exist…”

I am not asking you to do any such thing.  What I am asking you to do is to consider that the logic by which you are dismissing the existence of God is flawed.  If you do open your mind, you may start to understand how believers approach the existence of God.

The three things (there are more, I will limit to three for the sake of brevity) I mentioned are: Love, hope, and elation.  All three are REAL, no one can deny they exist.  But can you PROVE any of them?  No, of course not.  You know they exist because you can feel them very deeply.  It is the same with God, once you open your heart to him

“..Fine, don't try spiining this into some sort of evidence god does exist though…”

“…Why don't you try proving pluto isn't made of green cheese.  You can't can you?...”

These are straw man arguments.  I will ignore them.

“…I'll find it later, it is in the property thing from last week I think where you suddenly denied insulting people as you didn't deem what you said was an insult…”

I am not holding my breath

“…Yeah sure, I've named a bunch of places, you have named nothing just made assertions with no facts whatsoever but even then it is still up to me to explain to a closed mind something they will never accept.  Get a grip or post some evidence yourself.  Presumably Abu Sayyaf, Al Qaeda, IRA etc don't have a religious agenda.  Sure thing…”

YOU  are the one who has asserted that [Religion is to blame for more deaths than probably anything else]. YOU are the one who made this obviously inane and stupid statement.  YOU are the one who needs to substantiate.  You have yet to do so, and you won’t because it is impossible

“…God gets credit for good stuff.  If it's bad it wasn't God's fault after all...”

That’s the first thing you’ve said that makes any kind if sense

“… In your world however God created man so if man does evil then sorry mate, still God's fault…”

NO, IT’S NOT!!!!!  God gave us FREE WILL, and men commit EVIL acts, not God.  Evil is not God’s fault

“…You are also being a hypocrite.  Sure, only a small minority of muslims want to eradicate the US.  On the other hand you happily tar everyone with the same brush when only a minority are to blame in, for instance, trading....”

Touche, you got me solid on this (However, I after being pressed I have relented and admitted on that thread that not ALL FO people are scumbags).  You win

“…I can't see a single point in this thread you have addressed other than various themes around asserting god is good and Vulcan is right.  Evidence please...”

No dude, let’s be clear about something…this is the outrageous statement that kicked off this line of debate

“…Reply #27 by To Vulcan

This is a stupid statement.  Religion is to blame for more deaths than probably anything else, more persecution, "forced" marriages to make the family look good.  You want me to go on?  This all continues to this day, it isn't some middle ages thing…”

It is YOU who needs to explain and provide evidence, not me!

[jalanperak]

“…Lets take some local examples.  Northern Malaysia/Thai border, err - nope.  Phillippines - err, nope.  Bali - err nope.  Want to look further?  Middle east/Israel, err nope…”

You have not substantiated your assertion in any way.  EXPLAIN!

Yeah sure, I've named a bunch of places, you have named nothing just made assertions with no facts whatsoever but even then it is still up to me to explain to a closed mind something they will never accept.  Get a grip or post some evidence yourself.  Presumably Abu Sayyaf, Al Qaeda, IRA etc don't have a religious agenda.  Sure thing.

In Vulcanl's defense here (and only here), I'll point out that the Abu Sayyaf, Al Qaeda and IRA are primarily political entities who have cloaked themselves with a veneer of religion to justify their actions.

[to vulcan]

“…Sure.  This is however the wrong way round.  I'm now supposed to admit I haven't proved that a non-physical unevidenced thing doesn't exist…”

I am not asking you to do any such thing.  What I am asking you to do is to consider that the logic by which you are dismissing the existence of God is flawed.  If you do open your mind, you may start to understand how believers approach the existence of God.

There is no evidence for God.  It is an explanation for stuff people otherwise can't explain (yet).  Show me some evidence.

The three things (there are more, I will limit to three for the sake of brevity) I mentioned are: Love, hope, and elation.  All three are REAL, no one can deny they exist.  But can you PROVE any of them?  No, of course not.  You know they exist because you can feel them very deeply.  It is the same with God, once you open your heart to him

These things I can feel and see on a daily basis.  I don't see or feel God, as above, it is just a catch all for things otherwise unexplained.

“..Fine, don't try spiining this into some sort of evidence god does exist though…”

“…Why don't you try proving pluto isn't made of green cheese.  You can't can you?...”

These are straw man arguments.  I will ignore them.

And the existence of God is different......

“…I'll find it later, it is in the property thing from last week I think where you suddenly denied insulting people as you didn't deem what you said was an insult…”

I am not holding my breath

I will look, it was last week and you know it.

“…Yeah sure, I've named a bunch of places, you have named nothing just made assertions with no facts whatsoever but even then it is still up to me to explain to a closed mind something they will never accept.  Get a grip or post some evidence yourself.  Presumably Abu Sayyaf, Al Qaeda, IRA etc don't have a religious agenda.  Sure thing…”

YOU  are the one who has asserted that [Religion is to blame for more deaths than probably anything else]. YOU are the one who made this obviously inane and stupid statement.  YOU are the one who needs to substantiate.  You have yet to do so, and you won’t because it is impossible

I have named numerous wars and terrorist acts, you have merely made assertions I'm wrong.  What were the crusades for?  The inquisition?  Many many examples you mere ignore, I do however concur with PP that in some instances it is a veneer to convince the masses, nevertheless, done in the name of religion.

“…God gets credit for good stuff.  If it's bad it wasn't God's fault after all...”

That’s the first thing you’ve said that makes any kind if sense

Very silly.

“… In your world however God created man so if man does evil then sorry mate, still God's fault…”

NO, IT’S NOT!!!!!  God gave us FREE WILL, and men commit EVIL acts, not God.  Evil is not God’s fault

At work, if you subordinate (on the assumption you are managing people) phantom ticks a confirm, is your cock on the block?  Of course it is, you can delegate authority but not responsibility.  Sorry, if man commits evil through his own free will then it is still gods fault for giving us the free will to start with.  This could get highly philosophical I guess but end of the day, still down to decisions god made.

“…You are also being a hypocrite.  Sure, only a small minority of muslims want to eradicate the US.  On the other hand you happily tar everyone with the same brush when only a minority are to blame in, for instance, trading....”

Touche, you got me solid on this (However, I after being pressed I have relented and admitted on that thread that not ALL FO people are scumbags).  You win

Thankyou.  Sadly your response is I was a total hypocrite now I'm just a bit hypocritical.  Nevermind, progress is usually made in small steps.  Progress however it is.

“…I can't see a single point in this thread you have addressed other than various themes around asserting god is good and Vulcan is right.  Evidence please...”

No dude, let’s be clear about something…this is the outrageous statement that kicked off this line of debate

“…Reply #27 by To Vulcan

This is a stupid statement.  Religion is to blame for more deaths than probably anything else, more persecution, "forced" marriages to make the family look good.  You want me to go on?  This all continues to this day, it isn't some middle ages thing…”

It is YOU who needs to explain and provide evidence, not me!

I have numerous times, you merely ignore it.  I could take a leaf out of your book and copy/paste stuff but to be honest I think that is junk.  It is clear to most rational people that loads of wars or conflicts are either religion based or have a connection (and I accept PPs point it may be an excuse rather than the real cause).

If not religion based (or at least a major contributor) then please explain:

Afghanistan
Gulf War
Nazis in WWII
Crusades
Ireland troubles
Palestine/Israel situation
Abu Sayyaff and N vs S 'Pines
Inquisition
Eradication of the templars

These are off the top of my head, there are many, many more.  As said I do accept some of these may have been more political but justified through religion, nevertheless it played a big part.

[Vulcanl]

"...It is an explanation for stuff people otherwise can't explain (yet)..."

Yes, belief in God explains many things.  There are so many things of this World that we do not yet understand...and of these there are some we NEVER will

"...Show me some evidence..."

*The fact that we can reason
*The obvious order of nature (including the cosmos)
*The universality of balance/perfectly opposing forces (good/evil, light/dark, high/low, etc)
*The existence of TRUTH, when we open our minds to it.  How in the World is it possible that a carpenter from an obscure backwater of the Roman Empire has had such an impact in human history?  What power exactly did he wield over the apostles that they came to believe to such an extent that they all died for the cause, and in so doing spawned countless other martyrs?

The evidence is in plentiful abundance.  You just need to open your eyes and see it

"...These things I can feel and see on a daily basis.."

A good start.  So you now agree that it IS possible for something to exist without having 'physical proof.' 

'Blessed are they who have not seen and yet believe!' 

"...I don't see or feel God, as above, it is just a catch all for things otherwise unexplained..."

That's OK for a start

"...What were the crusades for?  The inquisition?.."

Man-made perversions, the manipulation of something good to man's own evil ends.  In my country there is a trite saying: 'Guns don't kill people.  PEOPLE kill people.'  Same with religion.  The institution itself is wholesome and has done great good.  Where it has been manipulated it is most unfair to blame religion

"...At work, if you subordinate (on the assumption you are managing people) phantom ticks a confirm, is your cock on the block?  Of course it is, you can delegate authority but not responsibility..."

NO!!!!  Free will is not a chore, or a task....it is a GIFT.  God has given it to you, it is yours.  Although you may disappoint in how you act, God loves you no matter what you do...there is always the chance of redemption, as long as one is truly penitent.  If one is not and continues to commit evil acts, then eventually one will die.  But God has given you the choice to take that path.  It IS up to you!

"...Sorry, if man commits evil through his own free will then it is still gods fault for giving us the free will to start with.  This could get highly philosophical I guess but end of the day, still down to decisions god made..."

  You are perverting the concept of free will... it is a GIFT, not a curse.  We are the only creatures on this Earth that possess the faculties of reason and free will.  They are special gifts!!  You betray your negative opinion of humankind with this statement.  We are God's creations, and therefore special and deserving.  Sheesh

"...It is clear to most rational people that loads of wars or conflicts are either religion based or have a connection (and I accept PPs point it may be an excuse rather than the real cause)..."

"...These are off the top of my head, there are many, many more.  As said I do accept some of these may have been more political but justified through religion, nevertheless it played a big part..."

Now you are moving away from your initially misguided statement that [Religion is to blame for more deaths than probably anything else].  Good. Having a 'connection' is a far different thing from 'causing.' 

In addition to what I have already said about men manipulating religion ('guns don't kill people....people kill people'), I will counter your assertion by stating the obvious fact that the GOOD that religion has brought about in the World by FAR outweighs any evil that has been brought about in its name. 

If not for religious organizations, education would not be as available to the poor around the World as it has been.  This is probably the single biggest continuing contribution to the World today.

For those in society that have been ostracized and have no one to speak for and take care of them, religious organizations are there for them to turn to.

For the terminally ill, whose very real concern is what happens when the lights go out, religious are there to comfort them, and help them on their journey (even those who to that point have not believed!).

For those joyful occassions in our lives (birth, baptism, marriage) religion is there to provide a blessing and give us opportunity to say Thanks.

And for those occassions in our lives, when totally unexpected shit happens, and you find yourself lost, you better believe that it is of great comfort to have God to turn to.

[Single Word]

'Blessed are they who have not seen and yet believe!' 

There is a word for that.... gullible !

[to vulcan]

"...It is an explanation for stuff people otherwise can't explain (yet)..."

Yes, belief in God explains many things.  There are so many things of this World that we do not yet understand...and of these there are some we NEVER will

Maybe, time will tell.  Some of the stuff we understand these days would have been unthinkable in the past, guess what they were attributed to then?

"...Show me some evidence..."

*The fact that we can reason
*The obvious order of nature (including the cosmos)
*The universality of balance/perfectly opposing forces (good/evil, light/dark, high/low, etc)
*The existence of TRUTH, when we open our minds to it.  How in the World is it possible that a carpenter from an obscure backwater of the Roman Empire has had such an impact in human history?  What power exactly did he wield over the apostles that they came to believe to such an extent that they all died for the cause, and in so doing spawned countless other martyrs?

The evidence is in plentiful abundance.  You just need to open your eyes and see it

This is not evidence.  It is just a list of things we otherwise don't understand or do not have an alternative explanation for (yet), that doesn't mean God is the only possibility.

"...At work, if you subordinate (on the assumption you are managing people) phantom ticks a confirm, is your cock on the block?  Of course it is, you can delegate authority but not responsibility..."

NO!!!!  Free will is not a chore, or a task....it is a GIFT.  God has given it to you, it is yours.  Although you may disappoint in how you act, God loves you no matter what you do...there is always the chance of redemption, as long as one is truly penitent.  If one is not and continues to commit evil acts, then eventually one will die.  But God has given you the choice to take that path.  It IS up to you!

"...Sorry, if man commits evil through his own free will then it is still gods fault for giving us the free will to start with.  This could get highly philosophical I guess but end of the day, still down to decisions god made..."

  You are perverting the concept of free will... it is a GIFT, not a curse.  We are the only creatures on this Earth that possess the faculties of reason and free will.  They are special gifts!!  You betray your negative opinion of humankind with this statement.  We are God's creations, and therefore special and deserving.  Sheesh

Never said it was a chore.  Doesn't matter.  In your world God gave man free will, man then did bad stuff.  This was a direct result of God's gift.  He is still culpable.

Secondly, what makes you say we are the only creatures capable of reason and free will, could well be argued some of the higher order mammals also display both reason and free will though less advanced.

For those in society that have been ostracized and have no one to speak for and take care of them, religious organizations are there for them to turn to.

Well, except when religion is the reason they have been ostracised to start with.

For the terminally ill, whose very real concern is what happens when the lights go out, religious are there to comfort them, and help them on their journey (even those who to that point have not believed!).

Only if you believe there is something else, personally I don't.

[Vulcanl]

"...Some of the stuff we understand these days would have been unthinkable in the past, guess what they were attributed to then?..."

The faithful person will tell you that our ability to reason (there's that God-given gift again) has led to discoveries that have resulted in scientific explanations to previously poorly understood phenomena.  We (the faithful) will also tell you that the process that led to the creation of the Universe and everything in it was put in motion by God, according to his plan.  There is no paradox here for us

"...that doesn't mean God is the only possibility..."

Excellent!!! You have now acknowledged the possible  existence of God.  If you choose to continue to explore this possibility, I think you will in time find the 'evidence' you are referring to.  Remember, it's all about faith.  If you had all the 'evidence' then you don't need faith, do you?!??!

"...He is still culpable..."

  You don't get it, and that's OK (for now).  It is not possible for God to be 'culpable' of anything!!!  You'll see

"...Secondly, what makes you say we are the only creatures capable of reason and free will, could well be argued some of the higher order mammals also display both reason and free will though less advanced..."

I would think that if there were other creatures on Earth endowed with reason and free will, they would have reached out to us by now and let us know

"...Well, except when religion is the reason they have been ostracised to start with..."

Yes, entirely possible.  But this would be an example of man perverting religion

"...Only if you believe there is something else, personally I don't..."

You don't now, but perhaps in time you will.  I sense that you are younger than I am.  All I can tell you is to continue to keep an open mind.  The more you live, walk this Earth and ponder the Universe, in the pursuit of truth, the more likely it is that God is the answer.  Many intelligent and 'successful' people have gone away from and later returned to God

[bs vulcan]

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the World’s major religions. 

bullshit. judaism isnt even on the top 10 list of world religions.
fyou have the hindu's the buddhists, the sikh's the african traditional diaspora to contend with.
there are 20 times more buddhists than adherents to judaism in this world. and the buddhists doesnt even make the top 3 list.

i'm even excluding the atheists as a form of belief.

as usual you throw around arguments without any substantiation. go ahead, admit that you where wrong and apologize to the board for sharing unsubstamtiated and factually incorrect information.

and i won't name a source, you can google this with ease on your own.

[Vulcanl]

bs vulcan,

Christianity and Islam make up more than half the World's religions (by followers):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all worship the same God and the latter two are descended from the first.  I did not intend to slight any other religions of the World, I am merely most familiar with the teachings of these. 

I have and will always acknowledge when I am wrong about something, but I don't think that is the case here.

[the Light and Dark]

Don't forget Jediism, in the last census of the UK, 0.7% of the population listed their religion as Jedi Knight - the fourth largest next to Christian, Muslim, Hindu - above Jewish and Buddhist.

May The Force Be With You

[Don't you mean...]

May the farce be with you.