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Cruncher
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« Reply #15 on: 12 February 2010, 9:49:01 am » |
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Not interested in another 'who has missed the boat' debate! It was about the affordability of current market levels, ie, rental trend reflecting the selling prices of new condos. A PP made a good point in my view, that a lot of couples pool incomes to buy condos. I have based my view on what I can afford. Let's get down to figures, using my example: I can afford to spend about S$5,500pm on either rent or mortgage, with about S$300,000 in the bank I could use as deposit. My base is about S$25,000pm. Let's not spend too much time evaluating what I could afford (I know I could get a 2-bed to rent along River Valley or buy a condo outside prime areas). BUT, How does this compare to what the majority of the market can afford? Am I below average? Above? About average?
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ExpatSingapore Message Board
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« Reply #15 on: 12 February 2010, 9:49:01 am » |
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Mr Irony
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« Reply #16 on: 12 February 2010, 10:20:21 am » |
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Gov opens door to foreigners to boost economic growth. Singaporeans buy property (options) to rent out to foreigners. Property prices inflate. Foreigners take local jobs. Singaporeans complain about the competition. Government halts immigration policy. Developers finish building property. Property.....?
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poi
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« Reply #17 on: 12 February 2010, 12:10:12 pm » |
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The majority in the market have a headstart compared with the OP because they have the HDB. Most people make a profit after selling their HDB. But the OP can hope that the govt. popularity vote will dropped below 60%. in the coming elections.( This is very unlikely especially when the old man is still around) Then the confidence will be shaken and the market may collapse. Will the OP dare to step in when everybody is selling?
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Cruncher Too!
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« Reply #18 on: 12 February 2010, 13:18:26 pm » |
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Similar situation as OP. Been here less than 2 years, income $24.8K/month, lower savings at S$200K and currently renting at S$4.2K/month. Will continue to rent but only 1-year lease this time. Hopefully fundamentals and rational thinking will prevail come next year should we decide to buy.
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Cruncher Too!
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« Reply #19 on: 13 February 2010, 1:30:30 am » |
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PP. With comments like that it is soooo obvious you have been here less than two years. 2 days perhaps? You sound like another boat misser!
Why would I f#@*ng care about your "boat", even if for your own sake (and all other agent trolls here) it does not "sink"? I'm no kiasu so this won't matter, whether it's rental or mortgage I can afford to pay. Been here long enough to see how "special" the property market is -- uniquely Singaporean! Anyway, time and again you've proven to be a useless cretin! |
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Klaas
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« Reply #20 on: 13 February 2010, 10:56:56 am » |
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I think he missed the brain boat.  |
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Vulcanl
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« Reply #21 on: 13 February 2010, 16:19:02 pm » |
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Abomination,
You have hit the nail on the head in acknowledging that this is not a 'Singapore-only' problem!
I have family in the States with the same problem as you - bought earlier this decade (yes - contrary to mainstream media the first decade of the 21st century has not ended yet) at the height of the bubble and helplessly watching the value of their residence decline, resulting in a very real form of slavery. My best advice to them (and you??!) is to simply walk away. Hand over the keys and tell the bank "it's your problem." In the States the repercussions are not that bad. You declare bankruptcy and 7 years later get to start all over again. I don't know if this is possible in your country.
Thankfully, here in Singapore it is not as easy to walk away from debts and the repercussions of poor financial planning. Singapore is also blessed to be in a strategically important geographical location in Asia - the World's most solid source of growth for the foreseeable future.
Kubes,
You are a smart man and damn well know that this issue of home affordability is out of the hands of the government. They are in a corner here: if they put in measures to suppress price appreciation, the masses will be up in arms. If prices continue to escalate out of reach the same result holds true.
Singapore is too small to fully shield itself from the buffeting of World financial movements. This is the model they have adopted. It has worked well for them and I don't see any reason why they should make any wholesale changes.
In the end, always and everywhere it is up to individuals to make sound personal finance decisions.
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wazzziz
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« Reply #22 on: 14 February 2010, 19:19:45 pm » |
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PP. With comments like that it is soooo obvious you have been here less than two years. 2 days perhaps? You sound like another boat misser!
Why would I f#@*ng care about your "boat", even if for your own sake (and all other agent trolls here) it does not "sink"? I'm no kiasu so this won't matter, whether it's rental or mortgage I can afford to pay. Been here long enough to see how "special" the property market is -- uniquely Singaporean! Anyway, time and again you've proven to be a useless cretin! OK, OK pal, if you have nothing useful to say, why dont you just do us all a favour and calm down. Okay so you think its not that special here. Then do put us out of our misery and tell us where you think is really special. Is it some dull bland suburb where the most exciting thing that happens is the postman comes into the street...yawn Zzzz. People live here because they love the lifestyle that asia offers, the good weather, the food, the friendly locals, the easy working life, tax free money, the cheap travel...tell me why your boring suburb, crap weather and paying tax beats this...? So if you can respond in a mature manner without resorting to abuse, do tell us where you own property which is so 'special'..? ha ha...I bet you dont even own any property. So you're just sick jealous of those who do. |
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Sounding more and more
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« Reply #23 on: 15 February 2010, 13:41:58 pm » |
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PP. With comments like that it is soooo obvious you have been here less than two years. 2 days perhaps? You sound like another boat misser!
Why would I f#@*ng care about your "boat", even if for your own sake (and all other agent trolls here) it does not "sink"? I'm no kiasu so this won't matter, whether it's rental or mortgage I can afford to pay. Been here long enough to see how "special" the property market is -- uniquely Singaporean! Anyway, time and again you've proven to be a useless cretin! OK, OK pal, if you have nothing useful to say, why dont you just do us all a favour and calm down. Okay so you think its not that special here. Then do put us out of our misery and tell us where you think is really special. Is it some dull bland suburb where the most exciting thing that happens is the postman comes into the street...yawn Zzzz. People live here because they love the lifestyle that asia offers, the good weather, the food, the friendly locals, the easy working life, tax free money, the cheap travel...tell me why your boring suburb, crap weather and paying tax beats this...? So if you can respond in a mature manner without resorting to abuse, do tell us where you own property which is so 'special'..? ha ha...I bet you dont even own any property. So you're just sick jealous of those who do. like a local agent with every post! Just check that last sentence...  |
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Kubes.SG
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« Reply #24 on: 15 February 2010, 16:26:31 pm » |
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Kubes,
You are a smart man and damn well know that this issue of home affordability is out of the hands of the government. They are in a corner here: if they put in measures to suppress price appreciation, the masses will be up in arms. If prices continue to escalate out of reach the same result holds true.
Singapore is too small to fully shield itself from the buffeting of World financial movements. This is the model they have adopted. It has worked well for them and I don't see any reason why they should make any wholesale changes.
In the end, always and everywhere it is up to individuals to make sound personal finance decisions.
The SG Govt has been very foolish on Housing Affordability. They have this totally bizarre and stupid metric that counts the number of propoerties that could be purchased with a person's lifetime-income. It is such a ridiculous metric as it assumes a certain income growth trend over a 50 year working life. In the past HDBers could buy about 1.5 flats with their life-time income. The academics who came up with this way of measuring decided (how???) that above 1.0 properties per lifetime = good. Below 1.0 properties per lifetime = bad/stress. Well SG has slipped into the negative. The fastest way to reduce the quality of life and standard of living for the population of a country is to have their most critical and expensive resource spiral upwards to unaffordable levels. What is the point of owning a property that is so expensive that is impossible to sell? What is the point of selling a property if you cannot afford a meaningful setup to the next level? What is the point borrowing so much money that it will take more than a lifetime to pay it off? What is the point of having a property market that first-time buyers cannot afford? It is all totally pointless and highly damaging. Already Singapore has the lowest quality of housing in the world at its various price-points. HDB, though improving is still very poor quality, crudely built, limited facilities, small sized, and not even owned by the buyer - yet is is amongst the most expensive "entry-level" housing on earth. If you step up to private you get better quality but at an absurdly high cost vs what you would elsewhere in the world. Plus 80% of your greedy neighbors can force your to sell, or after 99 years the Govt can evict your decedents and take back ownership. We see broader and significant negative implications that unaffordable SG house prices bring: SG is way down on the quality of life rankings; SG is very low on the most livable city index; Singaporeans have amongst the fewest babies in the world; Singaporeans are the unhappiest people in Asia; Singaporeans have amongst the lowest spending power in the region. The SG Govt started well with HDB in the 1960s, but since 1990 have failed to keep a lid on all property prices. Now we see a population that thinks (and is told) it is rich, but the reality is that they live like peasants. The cause of the massive inflation of HDB and mass-private prices is because the Govt decided new HDB pricing would be linked to the prices increases of private property. Very sad. |
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« Last Edit: 15 February 2010, 21:36:55 pm by Kubes.SG »
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The object in life is not to be on the side of the Majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the Insane.
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casinocasinocasino
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« Reply #25 on: 15 February 2010, 20:05:25 pm » |
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The property market here is a casino, nothing more and nothing less. The prices are more volatile than anywhere on Earth I have experienced and the locals literally trade rtheir own homes, returning to live with their parents or into HDB's once they're done. There is no concept even of quality of life here, all that matters is money, even visits to the temple are just about "praying for prosperity".
The qualitry of construction is awful, you hear every footstep, you hear every movement of a chair scraping across a floor, you hear your next doors TV and the construction begins to crack within a few years of TOP. And the resort living reminds me of a cheap holiday resort, even a zoo at times.
Of course if you find a penthouse, which is hard, that will help, but half of those are poky duplexes, few are single level now.
And even if you find a decent place to live, it isnt a place to live forever as it may be enbloc'ed within a few years and then the search wil begin again.
No, Singapore is just a place to work and save money, just like any other big city in the world, not settle down in. The constant property flux and obsession prevents the feeling of being able to settle here even if you wanted to. No wonder the birth rate is low, without the feeling of being able to settle down people are less likely to enjoy a stable and healthy family life.
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Vulcanl
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« Reply #26 on: 16 February 2010, 15:51:59 pm » |
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Kubes,
I know literally nothing about the metric you are referring to. I can only go by my own experience and observations. My wife's parents bought a new flat 30 years ago in the heartlands and they have lived there the entire time. The mortgage on it was paid off long ago, and the place is now worth more than ten times what they paid for it. Indeed HDB has been very good for Singapore.
I read and hear so much noise about how high HDB prices are, but a home search last year and continued interest in the market since then tells me that all is not as dire as it is made out to be. Yes, some flats in some areas are going for half a million dollars (or more), but that is for prime areas (location-wise).
Just like real estate anywhere in the World, location is everything. If people were willing to locate themselves farther out the prices come way down. You and I know that a commute of 45 minutes is just not that big a deal. We should all live within our means. An old fashioned rule of thumb is to not carry a mortgage that is more than 3X household income. It is entirely possible to live by this rule here.
Private condos are a complete and utter waste of money in my opinion. I agree with you that comparables in other major cities of the World present a far better value.
This is why my family has chosen to live in HDB. You like to knock HDB living (I wonder if you have ever even tried it??!), but I tell you it is very comfortable, quiet and serene and that is where the 'real Singapore' is. If people were to ask me what is Singapore? It is HDB!!
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Agent007
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« Reply #27 on: 17 February 2010, 6:56:48 am » |
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Condos a waste of money? Now that's a gem!  |
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Lab Mouse
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« Reply #28 on: 17 February 2010, 7:25:51 am » |
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I was on a pretty good income (well above the average Singaporean), but I still found the price of housing severely unaffordable and the choice of housing severely lacking. I don't believe in 30 year mortgages..that's ridiculous. I believe mortgage payments should be no more than 20 years. Anyway, if you think about, we are giving up a lot just to own a roof over our head in Singapore. Now that I've moved to the US, I find that I can actually afford to do something that I actually enjoy which pays me only half my last drawn salary in Singapore, but I get double the time I have with my family, double the size of my home at half the cost, and 3 nice cars for the price of less than 2 in Singapore. Am I missing something here? In another post, I asked what is it about Singapore that makes someone want to pay over the odds to live there. I still haven't figure it out.
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Vulcanl
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« Reply #29 on: 17 February 2010, 8:51:33 am » |
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Lab Mouse,
Your is a very sensible post and I agree with all of it. As for this question:
[what is it about Singapore that makes someone want to pay over the odds to live there]
The answer is: nothing
But for some of us in a certain situation this place has been an excellent shelter from the ecofinancial storm we have endured the past few years. When the time comes for me to go home (and I am getting closer to that point myself) I will take back with me many fond memories of this experience
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