PR / NS

[Variations]

I can check with the relevant offices when they re-open on Wednesday, of course,  but I am also interested to hear from anyone with first hand experience of this.   
   
My wife and I have successfully applied for PR and plan to complete the formalities soon.  Our young son will not become a PR at this stage.  Two questions:
   
1) I understand that I am exempted from NS as I applied under under the professionals scheme.  I also understand that my son will not be required to do NS as he is not becoming a PR himself.  However, is it the case in practice that they will still call him up for NS at age 16 (because he is the son of a PR), and that he must explain at that time why he doesn't need to do NS?  Or is it the case that they will they simply never call him up, as he is not a PR himself?
       
2) I understand my son's dependant's pass will be cancelled when I take PR, and that he then gets an LTSVP.  Does he get that LTSVP simultaneously with my PR, or do we need to do a fresh application for it?
 
Many thanks.

[no NS]

He will only be called up for NS if he becomes a 2nd generation PR. If nothing has changed since we did it a couple of years ago, when you go to collect your blue ICs his DP will be cancelled and a temporary SVP put in his passport. You then need to make an application for his LTSVP with you and your wife as sponsors. Adopt the belt and braces approach by giving every bit of information asked for. If you don't have something, like a record of CPF payments, just put the reason (you are new PRs) in a letter. The staff at ICA are actually very helpful and will guide you through the process if you ask them for any information you are not sure of. Once he reaches school age, you'll need to switch to a Student Pass.

[no NS]

Just a point to remember - if he doesn't become PR and you are really here for the long term, he will have to leave Singapore when his studies finish, unless he qualifies on his own merits for an EP.

[Variations]

Thank you, no NS.  Can you please clarify what is "a second generation PR"?  Can the child become one passively (for example, if he  returns to Singapore to work in adulthood?)  Or does it only happen if we/he later makes an application for him to become a PR? 
   
 

[no NS]

No "passive" PR - you have to apply and be granted it. 2nd generation PR is one who has a parent or parents who are already PR. You are exempted from NS as a 1st generation PR through the skilled professional route. If you had applied for PR under family ties category, you would not have been exempt, although depending on age or other circumstances you may not have been required to serve. If he returns to work here as an adult he can apply to do so with an EP. If he later applied for PR, guess 2nd generation rules would come into play but best to confirm with ICA, rather than my hearsay. 

[advice!!]

If it were me in this situation I would be investing a few dollars visiting a lawyer to get professional advice.

One thing is for sure. If a male gives up PR to avoid NS then under current practise they are NEVER going to be allowed to work again in Singapore with an EP.

So if you get it wrong it can have long term consequences.

[$Pripps]

If it were me in this situation I would be investing a few dollars visiting a lawyer to get professional advice.

One thing is for sure. If a male gives up PR to avoid NS then under current practise they are NEVER going to be allowed to work again in Singapore with an EP.

So if you get it wrong it can have long term consequences.

Actually when you cancel the PR, they say it will be more difficult the next time, not that its impossible, I guess that leaves them some flexibility if the son turns out to be a world athlete, famous actor or a Nobel prize winner... 

[Bys]

Here's the argument among MPs:
What's your view?

================================================
CONSIDER this, if Albert Einstein (considered the greatest scientist of the 20th century), Stephen Hawking (celebrated physicist and author of A Brief History Of Time) and Bill Gates (Microsoft chief and currently the world's richest man) were to come to Singapore, would we put them in jail?

The answer: Yes - if they're National Service defaulters.

This was the bottomline, as Parliament engaged in an animated and emotional debate about the Government's push for jail terms of up to three years for serious default cases.

What's 'serious'? According to Defence Minister Teo Chee Hean, it's when you stay away for two years or more from the time you must enlist for NS - or for those given deferment, from the time their exit permits expire.

SEEN AS BEING UNFAIR

Why so harsh? Because, the minister said: 'We'll be seen as being unfair if we were to treat talented NS defaulters more leniently than others. The fact that they are talented and can contribute to Singapore does not detract from the fact that they have defaulted on their NS.'

So yes, even if this means such talents end up staying away, at Singapore's loss.

Not every MP was convinced.

Despite the hue and cry over renowned pianist and ex-Singaporean Melvyn Tan's $3,000 fine for defaulting on his NS obligations - a sentence many considered too light - many of the 16 who spoke actually said: Let's be more flexible, more sympathetic and less judgmental.

Stressed East Coast GRC MP Tan Soo Khoon: 'Increasing the fines and penalties for defaulters may give us satisfaction, and a greater sense of fairness and justice, but it does not necessarily bring the men back.'

Ayer Rajah MP Dr Tan Cheng Bock said: 'We as a nation must always make room for forgiveness. Where possible, Singapore must never reject a returning son.'

After all, these MPs pointed out, many so-called defaulters were just kids when their parents yanked them abroad. Or they could have been chasing after that dream job when the NS call-up came.

Another veteran backbencher, Bukit Timah MP Dr Wang Kai Yuen, even said he was 'disturbed' by the jail terms.

'Are we seeking just punishment or vengeance?... We should not slam the doors shut for such lost sons.'

Especially, he explained, if they've turned the emotional corner and, like Mr Melvyn Tan, now want to renew old ties with family and country.

But it was the man who dropped the names of Einstein, Hawking and Gates - Tampines GRC MP Sin Boon Ann - who made the most impassioned plea.

Mr Sin argued: 'It seems... there will not be any satisfaction until the pound of flesh is extracted... (But) as we mature as a society and become more gracious, we must learn that the world is not only cast in black and white... (and) to be a more generous society by rising above our basic instincts.'

West Coast MP S Iswaran, though, had a different perspective.

MAKING A SACRIFICE

He'd recently met two young men - a foreigner who's a Singapore PR, and a Singaporean with an Australian PR. Both were serving their NS and asked him the same question: 'Why am I doing this?'

The MP's point? 'I want to be able to look these men... in the eye and say to them: 'We know you're making a sacrifice. We apply the rules impartially. We respect your sacrifice and service, and we'll not forget it. And I think our laws and the way we enforce them must evidence that and match our words and commitment.'

Wrapping up, Mr Teo advised the House to ponder this: 'Who will shed a tear for Singapore if there is no Singapore for such people to return to, because the institution of National Service has been undermined?'

So the country has spoken.

When it comes to NS, there are simply no ifs or buts. Just come home and do it.

[winzone]

I heard one of my friend. His wife is PR and he is dependent PR.
later he apply PR. He said, he need to go NS.

I confuse about that kind of situation, he become 2nd generation PR?

[no PR]

He got his PR under family ties category rather than professional and technical category the second generation thing doesn't apply so he is not exempt. I believe that the authorities exercise  some leeway about actually doing NS even if he has to register, depending on his age, but he will have to check that for himself in his circumstances.

[mds]

Hi Variations. This topic has not been active since several months, but I hope this message still reaches you.

My wife & I are both Singapore PR's, but I am in US on a short-term assignment. We should be returning back to Singapore soon. We have a son who was born in US, and we decided to go for a US Citizenship for him.

Based on your situation, can you please let me know how did you go about getting a LTSVP for your son, how long did it take? We are planning not to make our son a Singapore PR.

I would appreciate any insights you can provide. Thanks.

[Variations]

PP: One thing I discovered is that children of PRs are not supposed to attend school or pre-school here on a LTSVP.  They should have a student pass, instead. Only the (pre-)school can initiate the required application, which they do in an online sytem called Solarplus. To do this, the school will need a scan of your child's passport and his FIN if he has one. After you have the system-generated Solar+ reference number from the school, you submit the usual docs to ICA. The process then takes about a month.  All this comes with the caveat that I have only a layman's knowledge of the process and you should of course check your own child's position with ICA.  You can also google Solar+ student pass for more info.  Good luck.