singaporean or british nationality

[expat yorkshire]

Dear all ,

Me and my Singaporean wife are expecting a baby in september . If i opt for a Singapore passport for my child , does it mean that they can never get a british passport or can they give up the nationality in the future and take a britsh passport .( or both if dual nationality is accepted by then )

We are here in Singapore for at least the  the medium term ..

[alanh70]

I think all that it comes down to is "National Service". As a Singaporean, your child will have no option but to do National Service - even if he is not resident in Singapore he will have to return to do so. Another issue would be how many countries can you visit without the need for a Visa?

[heard]

I heard the Sg govt closes its eyes to dual nationality (similar to the US).
So, why not have baby here, get the Sg pass (legally it'll be the only one then), then go to British high comission (or Passport office near Victoria in London) and get second passport.
I know at least three Singaporeans with two passports. What's the bad thing of having them?
When law stays behind reality at first the authorities "close their eyes", then, hopefully, changes happen.
Recently the US officially adopted a policy that a person, born with the right of several, incl. US nationalities, can have them all, incl. US (and pay tax to US later, or not have pass renewed).

[alanh70]

Sorry, forgot to mention - if it is a Girl then I guess no worries!!

[heard]

And, yes, all three Sg guys mentioned got second pass to avoid military service. One actually came back years later, his pass got renewed. No call for service. Typical story all over the world.
If the govt doesn't close eyes to this, then they'd lose these "local talents" who manage prety well abroad anyway. In France some international work is considered military service - once you reach abroad, it's tough for the army to "collect" you. Why lose you, then? Better use you - the army service is only with French companies, who use it to underpay French tallents.

[Connie]

Congratulations Marty. I was told to look surprised when you told me, so assume that I'm very surprised   Presumably being from Yorkshire, your plan is to avoid paying for the UK passport?

[are you sure?]

Whether your child holds a Br passport or a Sg passport or both, your child is a citizen if he/she is born in Sg. As far as I know,the Br Govt doesn't really have an issue if one wishes to have 2 passports.
When he reaches the age of 21, he will have to choose 1 as the present laws do not allow dual citizenship. If you have a boy, he has to do NS first before renouncement.

[not quite right...]

My son was born in singapore last year and myself and my husband are both british. However, when he was born it clearly stated on his birth cert that " the child is not a citizen of singapore at the time of birth". we had to register his birth to get his cert and then straight away apply for his british passport and dependent pass and register him as  a british citizen at the high comm. At no time was he ever considered a singaporean citizen unless we wanted him to be and then we would've had to apply for his citizenship, which would've meant he'd have to have completed his national service later on.
Hope this is of some help..!!

[DD]

One point on the British nationality, which I think your baby will get by descent from you (as opposed to by birth which he/she would acquire if born in the UK) -
this is a "watered down" form of nationality in that he/she will not be able to pass it on to his/her children if they are born outside the UK and the other parent is not a UK citizen by birth.

[fifa]

Only a child born in Singapore to citizens is automatically a Singapore citizen. All others will have to arrange to take on the citizen of the parents through their home country.

Singaporeis not the US where citizenship is conferred at birth.

[Professor]

Since your baby boy is born in Singapore (SG), you need to register his birth with the Registry of Births and Deaths at the Singapore Immigration and Registration (SIR) office (http://www.sir.gov.sg/).

By registering his birth with SIR, your child does not automatically become a Singapore citizen. Only children of Singapore citizens can be Singapore citizens at birth.

If one of the parents is a Singapore citizen (in this case, your wife) and the child is born in Singapore, you need to be very careful with your choice. I am quite puzzled that you are given a choice. By SG law, your child should be an SG citizen by birth. It does not apply if both parents are British citizens, as some here have pointed out. However, the law is very specific in that it addresses the male child, whether he is born in SG or overseas, as an SG citizen if he is born to a father who is an SG citizen by birth. So, perhaps, in your case, you are given the choice since you are not an SG citizen despite the fact that your wife is one. (The SG law is gender-biased here.)

In the context of National Service (NS), here are the rules of SG law (taken from http://www.mfa.gov.sg/consular/faq/citizenship.html  on the question "Who can renounce their Singapore citizenship?":

"Since 5 Mar 79, the Government has been empowered under Article 128(2)(b) of the Constitution of the Republic of Singapore to withhold registering a declaration of renunciation by a person who is subject to the Enlistment Act unless he has:
- discharged his liability for full-time NS;
- rendered at least 3 years of Operationally Ready National Service; or
- complied with other conditions laid down by the government.
For male citizens who left Singapore before the age of 11 and have not enjoyed significant socio-economic benefits in Singapore, i.e. have not applied for an NRIC, extended their Singapore passport validity beyond the age of 11 or studied in Singapore school beyond 11 years old, we will not object to their renunciation of Singapore citizenship if they do not wish to fulfil their NS obligations. However, they should still register for full-time NS with CMPB at the age of 17½ and apply for deferment from enlistment till the age of 21 (under Singapore law, a citizen could only renounce at the age of 21) pending their decision on their Singapore citizenship status. Those who subsequently renounce their citizenship at the age of 21 will not be required to serve NS. Those who retain their Singapore citizenship will be enlisted for NSF.

Generally, those who left Singapore after the age of 11 will be deemed to have enjoyed the socio-economic benefits of Singapore. They will not be allowed to renounce their Singapore citizenship without fulfilling NS obligations."

In the context of dual citizenship, here is the excerpt from the same url:

"It is not our Government's policy to allow dual nationality. Any Singapore citizen who has formally acquired the citizenship of another country may be deprived of his Singapore citizenship under Article 134 of the Constitution of the Republic of Singapore."

In the context of renunciation of SG citizenship, especially when it is related to males reaching 21 years of age, here's the excerpt:

"A Singapore citizen over the age of 21 years and of sound mind and who is about to become the citizen of another country may apply to renounce his Singapore citizenship.
However, the Government may withhold the registration of a declaration of renunciation –
a) if the declaration is made during any war in which Singapore is engaged; or
b) if the declaration is made by a person subject to the Enlistment Act unless he has
discharged his liability for full-time service under section 12 of that Act;
rendered at least 3 years of reserve service under section 13 of that Act in lieu of such full-time service; or
complied with such conditions as may be determined by the Government."

Considering all the above excerpts from SG law (and regulations), there are catch-22 situations when your child reaches 11, 17½, and 21 years. If your child is registered as an SG citizen at birth, which is possible by nature of your spouse's SG citizenship and the child's birthplace, he will be required to register for NS at age 17½ and seek for deferment from NS till age 21 when he is given the choice to denounce his SG citizenship, i.e. if he has opted for or is already a British citizen then. Of course, the Age 11 criterion plays a role here if you decide to leave SG before he reaches his 11th birthday. But once he is registered as an SG passport holder as a child (i.e. an SG citizen), he is liable to fulfil the requirements of the Enlistment Act even though he may spend most of his life (Age 11 criterion) outside of SG. The unknown (and risk) is that the SG authorities may turn down his renunciation request at age 21 if he failed to comply with the Enlistment Act requirement of registering for NS at age 17½ and seeking deferment from 17½ to 21 years. That he may be required to return to SG to serve full-time NS at the age of 18 is another point of concern for you, i.e. if his deferment application is unsuccessful.

Simply put, the 17½ to 21 year period of his life is in SG legal limbo if he is registered as an SG citizen at birth, even though he may be holding a British passport before or after age 11.

Although SG law does not permit dual-citizenship (as indicated above in one excerpt), it contradicts itself or more appropriately makes itself contradictorily-convenient by word-craft and subtlety to hide the fact that a male can effectively become both a citizen of SG and a citizen of another country up to the age of 21.

Hope this helps.

[Professor]

Caveat: I'm presuming that the baby is a boy and he is born in SG. If she is a girl, ignore my legal advice.

[opinion]

yes that's true. singapore doesn't really bother about dual citizenship before age 21.

many singapore children are born abroad and thus hold both the citizenship of that country plus a singapore citizenship certificate (by descent, as they call it) and it doesn't bother singapore immigration.

a word of advice when entering singapore - it's wiser to use the singapore passport because then there is no limit on the amount of time your child can stay in singapore. the foreign passport only allows a 30 days stay (unless you make a special trip to immigration to sort that out) .

[Question]

Agree with fifa: S'pore does not grant citizenship by birth, say, as the US.
Now, my question: if I want to take up on S'porean citizenship, do I still have to do NS, though I'm 40? Tks a lot!

[expatmother]

A couple of years ago my son was at school (Tanglin Trust) with his friend whose father was a kiwi (New Zealander) and his mother an Indian Singaporean. Just before their son's 11th birthday the family moved to Nelson, NZ which co-incided with the start of the new academic year.

They moved at this time so their two sons would get the benefit of having NZ and Singaporean passports. However, they said that the main reason for their timing was that if they had left after their son's birthday, they would have had to post a huge bond with the Sing. govt. which would have been for many thousands of dollars (rather like one pays with the maid security bond). I can't remember the amount that it was, but I think it may be up to S$40,000. If the son does not subsequently register or abstain from National Service, the bond would be forfeited. However, since they left before his 11th birthday, they didn't need to take out the bond.  

I don't know if the procedures have altered in the last couple of years, but Yorkshire guy, I would check into it if you're going to be here for a few years! Maybe someone who reads this thread might know about how much this bond costs.      

[Fat Bob]

Yorkshire guy: One other thing to think about. If your child is not born in Yorkshire he will not be eligible to play for Yorkshire County Criket Club.

Interesting points here, personally if I was in the same boat I'd go for the British citizenship as this allows great freedom of travel and employment (the whole of the EU) and means the child does not need to do NS.

The only question there is could the child apply for Singaporean citizenship at a later date if he so desired? Could he/she state that they were born here to a Singaporean parent?

[Sunny]

The below is an email reply to my query to SIR when I had my girl last year. I am Singaporean and my husband, a Scandinavian. My girl is currently holding citizenship from both countries.

The Email Reply:

Dear Mdm,

    I refer to your email  dated 2.9.2001.

2    Please be informed that if the child is born overseas and  either one
of parents are Singapore Citizen and there is a lawful marriage at time of
the child's birth,  the parents may approach our Singapore Overseas Mission
for the registration of their child for Singapore Citizenship (SC) within 1
year of his/her birth.

3    They may forward the completed application form and relevant documents
which are to be duly certified by a Notary Public or person authorised to
administer Oaths through overseas mission or directly to our office for our
processing. Please enclose 2 separate bank drafts of $60 and $70 for
processing and issuance of certificates (for approved cases) respectively.
The normal processing time is 3 to 6 months.

4    Singapore does not allow dual citizenship. However, for minor citizen,
he/she is allowed to hold dual citizenship until the age of 18 where he/she
has to make a decision on which citizenship he/she decides to hold.

5    If the child decides to retain the Singapore citizenship, he/she has
to renounce his foreign citizenship on reaching 21 years old and come to
our Citizen Services Centre/Citizenship to take this Oath of Renunciation,
Allegiance and Loyalty before his/ her 22nd Birthday.  He/She will cease to
be a Singapore citizen by operation of law if he/she fails to take this
Oath on attaining 22 years of age.

6    We would like to highlight that if the minor Singapore citizen is
found to exercise his/her foreign citizenship rights, such as travelling on
a foreign passport when he/she reaches 18 years old and above, he/she is
liable for deprivation of Singapore citizenship.

7    All male Singapore citizens on reaching the age of 16 years are liable
for National Service (NS). You may like to check with the Central Manpower
Base (CMPB) on NS liability as this comes under their purview.  You may
contact them at Tel: 2700134 or email at: MFU@starnet.gov.sg.

8    Each application made will be considered on the merits of the case.

9    If the child is born in Singapore and  either one of parents are SC
and there is a lawful marriage at time of the child's birth, the child will
automatically become a SC.

Thank you.

Yours faithfully,

Tan Kim Yen (Ms)
Public Affairs Executive
for DIRECTOR
SINGAPORE IMMIGRATION & REGISTRATION
SIR feedback/34092

[Professor]

expatmom,

The bond is S$75,000, I believe.

Anyone who put up a bond recently, please correct if my figure is wrong. Thank you.

[expatmom]

Wow, so one could lose $75,000 or thereabouts if stroppy teenage Johnny decides he doesn't want to do his National Service?! I'd drag him back to Singapore and march him into the recruitment center!

The letter from the INS was very interesting. I wonder what happens then if the parents are *not* married? Isn't the child worthy of becoming a Singaporean?      

[expat yorkshire]

thank you all for the replies ..

2 more questions

I we decide to go for british citizenship and not  singaporean citizenship ...apart from not being able to vote are there any specifc disadvantages of holding a british passport if we intend to stay here for e.g schooling ,additional costs .

Secondly if my child has a singaporean passport and nothing else can they still live and work in England ?

Thanks fat bob ...the yorkshire cricket thing is a concern ...but i dont think my wife would appreciate me shipping her back to Leeds for the birth at the last minute. Although this is what PArky did ...

[Fat Bob]

For the Singapore passport worker in england (or anywhere in the EU) then you would have to get work permits and the like. This could be difficult, depending on the climate at the time.

So for that reason then the UK citizenship would be preferable.

[to yorkshireman]

As the reply to Sunny from SIR clearly states, if your child is born in Sg, he/she automatically becomes a Sg citizen. Be aware that it becomes a hugely stressful exercise for kid & family if it's a boy by the time the NS issue & bond comes around. Do realise that it is difficult  for MRs to have the child overseas so do sit down and talk this through carefully.
There are friends whom we are aware of whose kids cannot re-enter Sg cos he's branded a defaulter.
Are there any great advantages in holding a Sg passport..

[expat yorkshire]

in reply to fat bob

i understood from somebody ( probably the bloke in the pub) that even if children had a singapore passport in my situation they could still get "permanent right of abode" ( the equivalent of PR ) in the Uk which would allow them to live and work there as their father was a british citizen .

Does anybody have experiecne of this ?

We were aware when we got married about the national service thing. If my future child ia a boy and we are here say for the next x number  years . The boy will have grown up in Singpaore and having been to local schools et c. Therefore all his friends will be going for national service ...is it really that bad to do national serice ?

I agree that if we move to europe and stay there for it will be a probalem for them to come back !

[Horsesh*t]

NS is not that bad, for those who have to put up with it. It has character- and body-building qualities, like in a stud farm. But it eats up two and half of the fawn's prime years - time which he can spend finishing his university degree immediately after high school. Otherwise, the momentum for his pursuit of higher education may be lost with more than two years of his youth spent on running around the bushes. Since he will be the workhorse running round the bushes at less than minimum wage for those years and not you, you do not wish to make a wrong decision for him in which he may regret when he grows up to be a mustang.

Worse still, he may just kick you if he realizes he has better things to do (such as working on an accelerated PhD or boinking his love interests) when he grows up into a restless, rebellious, anti-establishment, SG-hating, galloping maverick. One year with the Royal Marines is a better bet for his attitude improvement.  

[Bewildered]

Don't worry about not playing cricket for Yorkshire. They changed the rules a while ago and now anyone can play for them....even Fat Bob.