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ExpatSingapore Message Board 27 May 2012, 23:31:26 pm *
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Author Topic: The China Bubble  (Read 1922 times)
Vulcanl
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« Reply #15 on: 14 April 2010, 22:21:51 pm »
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quick question,

[anyone who doesn't have your interpretation of decoupling is just wilfully blind]

This is spot on.  Sounds like you know me pretty well.... Wink

[do you really believe the gdp numbers and the gdp per capita when you look around your hdb]

I believe what my own eyes and ears tell me, and what I can see plain as day is that the West is in bad shape at the moment and there are more opportunities all around here in Asia.

With regard to SG GDP numbers....who really knows for sure?!??!  And guess what: The same can be said for USA GDP data (and other metrics) as well....

As I have posted about before, if I go by my wife's family and other locals I know, most Singaporeans have significant equity in their home (meaning the amount owed on the mortgage is low relative to the home value).

Kubes has been the frontman for the "Singapore is about to collapse" school of thought and he's been plain flat-out wrong for years now.  His posts are entertaining and thought-provoking, but in terms of investment advice they have not been helpful.
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ExpatSingapore Message Board
« Reply #15 on: 14 April 2010, 22:21:51 pm »
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simple question
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« Reply #16 on: 15 April 2010, 0:27:06 am »
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You are dodging, do you really believe the 32 number and if so do you see where it is, nobody I know is making it.

How does the average income here translate as per kubes post. You think everyone elses head is in the sand but don't answer straight questions.
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Vulcanl
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« Reply #17 on: 15 April 2010, 8:43:51 am »
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simple question,

I am not dodging anything.  This is your question:

[do you really believe the 32 number]

This is my answer:

There is no way to be sure, just as there is no way anyone can ever really believe anything that ANY Government tells you.  In short, I don't know and I don't care.  It has very little to do with my own personal situation. 

[and if so do you see where it is, nobody I know is making it]

Again, who cares what 'everyone else' is doing.  I am not at all interested. 

I have already stated in various places in the investments section of this site....even if Asia/China/Singapore are in a bubble, the prudent thing to do is to ride it on the upside and make the best assessment you can about getting out before it pops (we are nowhere near that point - most definitely NOT in 2010). 

My personal feeling is that China property is a bubble, but the rest of the economy is 'real.'  The population is massive, with plenty of potential for development.  Any bubbles can be easily mitigated by that Gov't with their ample reserves - they don't need to print money like we have in the West.

As for Singapore, once again - I believe what my own eyes and ears tell me on a daily basis.  This is a relatively wealthy country with a high savings rate and low debt levels (both private and public), educated population, and a system that has a proven track record of being able to make changes on a dime to continue its prosperity.  I don't see any reason at this time why this situation will not continue for decades to come.
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some reasons
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« Reply #18 on: 15 April 2010, 10:34:02 am »
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So you see a global shift in world economic power but no reason for anything to change for Singapore.

While I agree on some aspects of decoupling, I don't agree with your timeframe.  Nevertheless a lot of what you say when you talk about Asia really you mean China.  Places like Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia nothing while change for a very long time.

You may wish to ask yourself why Singapore is in the position it is.  It's due to colonial forefathers setting up due to a strategic trade route which the subsequent government has done well to continue.  Then ask yourself that with a decoupled China why this would continue to be the case.  You don't think it will have it's own financial centre or pharma industry, it isn't some charity where it thinks it should continue to look after Singapore.  If or when Indonesia gets it's act together (a very long way off but will still happen at some point) then no reason for Singapore as a SE Asia centre either let alone a pan-Asia one.

Long term de-coupling is not a good thing for Singapore, medium term it may be.
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TheWrathOfGrapes
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« Reply #19 on: 15 April 2010, 10:35:36 am »
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The bell tolls.  China is not the great savior, but the great house of cards.  


Who would be your Great Redeemer?
US?
Japan?
The PIIGS - Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain?
Give me China any time.

Now, the other side of the coin, from someone who knows better....

Debunking the myth of a China collapse

Global sentiment towards China’s economy and asset markets has turned from
exuberance just a few months ago to overriding concern about the side-effects
of last year’s remarkable credit growth. I posed three questions at the outset of
my recent presentations to large groups of investors and corporates: i) are you
concerned about a property bubble in China? ii) do you expect an increase in
non-performing loans, iii) do you expect further monetary tightening?
Approximately 85-90% of audience members responded in the affirmative to all
three questions. A number of prominent commentators, from hedge fund
manager James Chanos to investor-blogger Vitaliy Katsenelson (who went so
far as to label China “the mother of all black swans”) have contributed to the
current climate of alarmism by warning about credit excesses and an
overinvestment bubble, which they say could bring the country to economic
turmoil.

A second tact of criticism has been to point at China’s RMB4 billion stimulus
program and last year’s 33% surge in new bank lending as obvious hallmarks of
excess liquidity and a lowering of lending standards. In connection with this,
some commentators have raised concerns about hidden debt risks among local
government investment entities, while media reports of Chinese “ghost cities”
and empty commercial real estate spaces are increasingly cited as evidence of
local excesses.

There have always been cynics regarding China’s economic growth and without
joining the ranks of the doomsayers, it is easy to veer towards pessimistic
conjecture simply by observing the changing landscape in China’s rapidly
developing cities. Any casual visitor will marvel at the sprawling complexes of
newly-built apartments and office towers – admittedly many units at these
developments are typically owned by speculative investors holding out for capital
appreciation.

The worst-case fears concerning China’s property market are based upon a
layer of truth and we ourselves have highlighted the untenable nature of price
increases in some big Chinese cities, as well as the possibility that last year’s
property boom was partly fuelled by misdirected bank loans. However, there are
crucial differences between China’s real estate markets and those of the U.S.
(and indeed Dubai), which require that we view the apparent building bubble
through the lens of China’s unique circumstances.

Unlike the dramatic increase in household leverage that precipitated the U.S.
sub-prime crisis, Chinese household debt amounts to approximately 17% of
GDP, compared to roughly 96% in the US and 62% in the Euro area. While the
level of Chinese household leverage has increased in recent years, it has done
so from a very low base.

With respect to residential property, homebuyers in China are required to make minimum downpayments of 30% before receiving a mortgage, and at least 40% for a second home purchase. Even at the height of the government’s stimulus efforts, the minimum down-payment requirement for first homes was only lowered to 20%. The Chinese cultural tendency of shunning debt explains the many anecdotal accounts we hear about homebuyers putting down amounts that substantially exceed these minimum requirements. This is made possible by the massive amount of savings that Chinese households have accumulated, while in comparison, the U.S. savings rate stood below 1% in the years preceding the housing crisis.

Although price increases in the Chinese residential market appear rapid (over 20% in 2009), such headline figures cannot be viewed in isolation of the broader trend in income growth. Over the past 5 years, urban household incomes grew at a 13.2% compound annual rate, compared to an 11.9% CAGR in home prices. This is not to say that pockets of overheating cannot be found in some regional markets. In Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen and Hangzhou, for instance, prices did in fact outpace income growth by a margin of more than 5 percentage points over the same period. But again, we see this as a symptom of new urban wealth being put to speculative use, rather than the profligate use of leverage.

The combination of excessive leverage and mortgage securitization were at the epicenter of the U.S. sub-prime crisis – both of these factors are absent in the Chinese context. The commercial segment of real estate has inspired just as much concern, with prices rising 16% in 2009, despite low rental yields and prime office vacancy rates as high as 21% and 14% in Beijing and Shanghai, respectively. However occupancy and rental rates have started to pick up for prime properties – many of the current vacancies are at the lower end. While returns for new projects may end up lower than expected, China’s urbanization process is far from over and vacant space will be absorbed over time.

The crux of the problem with the Chinese real estate sector is that property is seen by the country’s investing class as a store of value, within an economy that offers its citizens persistently low deposit rates and limited investment options. The absence of a recurring property holding tax allows speculative homebuyers to disregard rental yields in hopes of reaping capital appreciation in the nottoo-distant future. We share many of the concerns about flawed incentives and overheating in the Chinese property market – but even if property prices were to undergo a correction, this would not trigger the type of economic and financial devastation that might arise in an over-leveraged economy.

Although stability in the property market is critical to sustaining the Chinese economy’s recovery, policymakers are clearly concerned about the risk of asset bubbles and the threat that excessive speculation could drive prices beyond affordability for average homebuyers. The government is also well aware of the need to increase the holding costs for property investment and is weighing the potential value of introducing a national property tax. This measure might be introduced in the medium-term and should serve to deflate prices in some overheating markets. In the meantime, authorities have re-imposed a business tax on homeowners who resell their properties within a period of two years and could hike this further to deter speculation.

The perennial ups and downs of China’s property sector arise from the fact that the country’s closed capital account and underdeveloped capital markets leave its citizens with few investment options. Investment interest in residential property has fuelled a mismatch between the stock of higher-ed apartment buildings and practical needs for affordable housing. This imbalance must be resolved over time by spurring the development of affordable housing, which is currently one of the government’s main policy initiatives. In the long run, financial reform, including capital account liberalization, will provide Chinese investors with broader investment options, reducing the role of real estate as a form of capital preservation.

Worries about public sector debt

A more recent warning issued by some China bears is that of hidden debt risk among Chinese local government investment companies – which according to state media reports, received approximately 40% of last year’s RMB9.6 trillion in new loans. Official estimates of the total outstanding loan balance for such investment entities exceed RMB6 trillion – or roughly 20% of Chinese GDP – a figure that has been criticized by some as being too low. According to a Bloomberg report quoting Victor Shih of Northwestern University, the worst case scenario arising from hidden borrowing by China’s local investment intermediaries is a large-scale financial crisis around 2012.

Since many shovel-ready local infrastructure projects were brought forward as part of the stimulus plan, near-term returns on investment are likely to be subdued. However, as J.P. Morgan analysts Samuel Chen and Sunil Garg have pointed out, Chinese bank loans for public sector investment projects carry implicit or explicit sovereign guarantees, and are thus almost akin to a bond issuance for a public works project. Moreover, the majority of projects at local government levels carry land collateral and explicit fiscal revenue guarantees. Over the past year, the Chinese government has also stepped up efforts to enforce tax collection across the corporate sector. This effort, when combined with improving business conditions, brought last years’ fiscal deficit to a narrower-than-budgeted 2.2% of GDP.

Chinese economic planners are already aiming to achieve a slowdown in infrastructure investment, shifting focus toward completing existing projects rather than funding new construction. Growth in infrastructure investment slowed to 42.5% in FY09, from 50.7% in the first half. On a year-over-year basis, the slowdown has been more pronounced, with infrastructure investment growth peaking at 55.5% in May, vs. 31.9% in December. Meanwhile, China’s banking regulator has ordered banks to closely follow lending guidelines to ensure that all lending to local government investment companies are backed by actual projects and that project risks are properly accounted for.

Looking ahead, while certain local administrations might struggle to service debt, the magnitude of public sector debt risks do not appear as severe as some have suggested. According to IMF forecasts, China’s government debt-to-GDP ratio is projected to reach 22% in 2010, compared to 94% in the U.S. and 227% in Japan. Even if the more alarming estimates of local government debt were included, the ratio would only grow to approximately 51% of estimated 2010 GDP.

As a pillar of demand for a number of economies and for the commodities complex, China's ability to regulate its economy has far reaching implications for global markets. One must not underestimate the scale of future demand in a country that is urbanizing at a rate of 15 million people a year. Today, many observers are concerned that China’s economy has grown too rapidly, and are all too-ready to point to pockets of overcapacity as proof of an imminent system-wide collapse. While we agree that certain vulnerable areas of the economy deserve closer monitoring, we find little support for the sceptics' views of an imminent crisis.

HANDS-ON CHINA REPORT
Mar 3, 2010
Jing Ulrich
Managing Director, Chairman,
China Equities, J.P. Morgan
« Last Edit: 15 April 2010, 11:02:27 am by TheWrathOfGrapes » Logged
TheWrathOfGrapes
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« Reply #20 on: 15 April 2010, 10:45:12 am »
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I actually laughed out loud when I read the SG economy grew by an annualized 32.1%.  How can this be called a real economy with a GDP that oscillates so violently.

There you go again.  The way you laughed sounded like a hyena.

Can't blame you since you hailed from that big red dot of an island down under.  The Oz economy can be put on cruise control - hardly any volatility.  When times are bad, just dig the ground for more uranium. alumina, coal, iron and gold and voila, the economy is back on track.  Or export more wheat, wool and wine (not women). And not whine.

OTOH, the little red dot is open to the vagaries of world trade flows and the economic and financial health of its major trading partners.

The indecent and vulgar pay - well, maybe you got a point there.
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Chew Ing Um
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« Reply #21 on: 22 April 2010, 16:39:13 pm »
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Guocoland to double China property investment on state curbs
Bloomberg
Beijing, China
Thursday, 22 April 2010, 9.24 am CCT

Guocoland, the developer controlled by Malaysian billionaire Quek Leng Chan, said China’s efforts to avert a property bubble has encouraged the company confidence to double its investment in the country, reported Bloomberg.

Guocoland, whose projects combine shopping malls, apartments, offices and hotels, said a year ago it planned to invest 33 billion yuan ($6.6 billion) in new commercial properties in China.

“We should very easily double that,” Violet Lee, head of Guocoland’s China operations, said in an interview in Beijing. “We have much more confidence now because we can sense the central government is taking things very seriously.”

Property prices in China surged by a record 11.7% in March from a year earlier, prompting the government to announce measures last week that increased the size of down payments, raised interest rates on second homes and barred banks from funding purchases of third homes.

Guocoland’s new investments will focus on integrated projects in major cities like Beijing and Shanghai as well as provincial centers, Lee said. The company is also considering expanding its land holdings.

The Singapore-based developer, part of Malaysia’s Hong Leong Group, aims to increase its investments over about two years, Lee said. She also sees a “big, big opportunity” in the Chinese government’s demand that 78 state-owned companies exit the property market because real estate isn’t their main business. The company plans to take advantage of the move through “mutually beneficially working relationships,” she said without elaborating.
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Ho Lee Shit
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« Reply #22 on: 14 May 2010, 10:35:35 am »
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There is no bubble just hot air from jealous people! The whole of Asia is on a one way street and that way is up, period. Welcome to new world economic order. Now everybody can prosper. Grin
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