Transportation of children in Singapore

[Vulcanl]

I have started this thread as a result of a recent discussion on the main section.

This is the post that has got me thinking seriously about this topic (directed to me):

"... I...ask which child safety restrain you used because I am an advocate of such restraints. By informing everyone of the child restraint you use you would be contributing to a well-intentioned post, because you would be increasing public awareness of this very important issue..."

There appears to be a concern by some here specifically about the safety of babies and toddlers travelling in taxis. 

Other considerations are:

*Children in school buses
*Car-owners who do NOT properly secure their children
*Children's safety in the public transport system

I am open to other ideas on this topic.

For my part, my family has never owned a car here, and we never will.  It is a safe conclusion that this applies to most Singaporean households (both local and foreigners). 

I am not aware of any epidemic in child injuries or death connected to travel here, so I will assume that for the most part whatever it is that the locals are doing can be considered 'safe,' simply based on this fact. 

A good place to start on this whole topic is to find some data for Singapore and compare it to other developed countries.

I will begin to look, and would appreciate any leads to this end.

[Vulcanl]

It appears that there is indeed a child restraint law on the books here:

http://driving-in-singapore.spf.gov.sg/services/Driving_in_Singapore/Information/pressandmsg/childseat.htm

Just asked the Mrs about the frequency of locals abiding by this law, and she says that for the most part the younger generation not only complies but believes in the concept and undertakes this of their own desire.

[tweek]

I am not aware of any epidemic in child injuries or death connected to travel here, so I will assume that for the most part whatever it is that the locals are doing can be considered 'safe,' simply based on this fact. 

Why does there have to be an 'epidemic' of child injury and/or death connected to car travel here for car seats or safety restraints of some kind to be necessary?? I can't imagine the family who ends up with a dead toddler or baby will care that much that there's no 'epidemic,' will they?

Honestly, you sound like my in-laws who like to bemoan the fact that children under the age of 6 or 7 in the US MUST by law be strapped into appropriate child seats when riding in cars because they never put their kids in car seats and 'they all turned out fine.' I've tried explaining to them some of the reasons for the law - mainly faster moving vehicles and the sheer multitude of cars on the roads today compared to 30 or 40 years ago. I've also told them that just because no one realized the danger of something 40 years ago doesn't make it OK now that we do realize the danger and, more importantly, the fact that we have the ability to take precautionary measures. Hell, 40 or 50 years ago no one thought smoking cigarettes was all that bad for health, but we certainly know differently today, don't we?

The same thing applies here. You've seen the sheer numbers of vehicles on the roads here and you've also seen some of the appalling driving skill as well - why not protect small children who are simply not big enough to benefit from the regular, adult sized seat belts in the car? And, as far as school busses are concerned, I know the school my kids attend has busses equipped with seat belts and the driver and aunties are instructed by the schools to ensure that all children on the bus wear them. (I'm reasonably sure most, if not all, of the international schools do this and probably a fair amount of the local schools as well.) I routinely ask my own kids whether or not they are wearing their seat belts on the bus to make sure they understand that I believe it is important.

[Vulcanl]

Tweek,

"...Why does there have to be an 'epidemic' of child injury and/or death connected to car travel here for car seats or safety restraints of some kind to be necessary??..."

There doesn't - you are jumping the gun.  I am not (yet anyway) making a judgment call on whether there 'should' or 'should not' be rules about this (anywhere in the World, not just Singapore).  Before we get to that point, we should first establish what the norms are.

'Expats' like to criticize local practices, often ignoring their own countries' less than ideal habits.  So here we go.  I have linked below the policies on the issue of child restraints in taxis for three different major localities outside of Singapore (all three are located in developed countries)

http://www.nyc.com/visitor_guide/taxis.75827/editorial_review.aspx

http://www.childcarseats.org.uk/carrying_safely/buses_coaches_taxis.htm

http://www.toysrus.com.au/New-Child-Restraint-Laws/ (Interestingly it appears that Australia began enforcing child restraint laws only fairly recently (2009)!!)

As you can see in all of the three aforementioned, there are NO LAWS REQUIRING CHILD RESTRAINTS IN TAXIS

Singapore's law mirrors the above.  So I will conclude that from a  regulatory standpoint Singapore's laws are consistent with those of the major developed countries.

Which begs the question: What do people who do not own cars in, say London or Manhattan do when they need to transport a child somewhere?

[Penwith]

I'm not really interested in the law in NY City.  What I care about is that my children are properly restrained here in Singapore and it's nigh on impossible to carry a child's car seat around a shopping centre or anywhere for that matter.  Apart from the newborn baby type, which fit into a pushchair, it's just not practical to carry a full size car seat around with you everywhere you go.  added to which, occasionally you get a taxi driver with a death wish - I worry for my own safety and my child's! 

Finally, I know Australia did have laws about child restraints in taxis before 2009.  The link says 'new law' - so doesn't mean another one didn't exist before that.  I know this, because we visited Sydney in 2001 and the taxi driver wouldn't let us use our portable car seat - he called for another taxi that had one bolted in.  He told us it was against the law as the seat had to pass Aussie regulations (our seat came from Europe).

[Penwith]

In reply to your last question about people in London who don't own cars.  The only people who don't own cars are those who can't afford them.  These people wouldn't be able to afford taxis either so would use public transport. I guess you may find the odd person who just chooses not to drive, but I've only ever met one and he just uses public transport.

[~Mr Porky~]

Vulcan only started this post because he wont admit he let his children ride in taxis unrestrained and doesnt have the balls to admit it. Whether there are laws requiring people to use child restraints is immaterial. It is common sense to provide all the safety measures available for your children and a fundamental responsibility as a parent. Something vulcan has failed at, wont admit and is now spouting off about to try and cover up the facts relating to his failings as a parent. Just type crash test dummy into you tube to see what will happen to a child if they are involved in an accident and are not properly restrained. How someone like vulcan could put his children at risk like that just to save some money and then come upwith some ridiculos theory about epidemics??? is unforgivable.
If you want to have one fact relating to death here then consider that in 2007 Singapore have 4.6 road deaths out of every 100,000 people. The UK in comparison had 4.7. Pretty similar number until you take into account that the UK has FOUR TIMES AS MANY CARS PER CAPITA!!!
When you also take into account that driving in Singapore is all urban, well lit and apart from the odd heavy shower pretty lucky with adverse weather conditions the figure becomes all the more shocking. So stick that in your data pipe and smoke it.
Last time I heard, data and theories about epidemics were less effective at stopping a child go face first through a windscreen at 50 miles an hour than a properly fitted child seat.

Will this be enough for vulcan to realise that using proper restraint for children should be mandatory? No, but I'm sure he will no doubt try and argue against that and with other people who are concerned for the lack of awareness that so many drivers seem to show here when it comes to their childrens safety.

For the record, when we travel we take the car seat with us so our child is properly restrained in the taxi to the airport and also at our destination. Is this a pain in the ass? Yes. Would we ever put our child at risk for the sake of convenience, or in vulcan's case money? Not on our (or their) lives.

Of course there should be laws in every country and also these laws should be enforced as well as road safety campaigns promoting awareness of looking after your children and showing the concequences of what happens to a child (or adult) who isnt restrained in a car properly.

There is absolutely no argument with regard to a reponsible parent's position when it comes to child safety The fact that you are even attempting to argue it (and losing) is not only pathetic but completely disrespectful to your own children.

[~Mr Porky~]

As you started this topic and its obviously got you thinking, please vulcan, do tell us what type of child restraint you used for your children when they were aged between 2 and 5 and you travelled by taxi in Singapore? It would be wonderful if you could pass on any tips on how to ensure your child is properly restrained and safe when travelling here and what you did to ensure your children were safe at all times.

Thanks!

[Vulcanl]

12 Bags of stuff,

"....Vulcan only started this post because he wont admit he let his children ride in taxis unrestrained..."

You are desperate to somehow paint me as an unresponsible parent.  There is no way for you to know this, and I will not engage you in that line of debate as it is off limits.  I will be happy to discourse generally on this very important issue of child safety.  Stick to that topic, please.

[~Mr Porky~]

If you are happy to discourse on the very important issue of child safety it would be wonderful if you could pass on any tips on how to ensure your child is properly restrained and safe when travelling here and what you did to ensure your children were safe at all times when they were aged between 2 and 5.

I can only imagine the truthful answer to this question will indeed lead to you painting yourself as an irresponsible parent or you would be more than happy to share your responsible behaviour with all the other parents and would be parents who read this post. If you don't answer it (truthfully) then its you that are painting the picture of yourself as an irresponsible parent, not me.  I'm just asking you a very simple question based on the very topic you yourself have started which for some unknown reason you have tried all manner of diversion tactics to avoid answering.

Honestly, you would be doing yourself more justice to just tell the truth. At least we could salvage the fact that you are a man that stands by his convictions, but you dont even have that going for you at the moment. And that's a pretty sad state of affairs when you consider this is just an internet forum and we are all anonymous. If you can't even tell the truth here when no one in the real world will find out you really are a bit of a sad case.

[Vulcanl]

Mr. Porky,

"...As you started this topic and its obviously got you thinking, please vulcan, do tell us what type of child restraint you used for your children when they were aged between 2 and 5 and you travelled by taxi in Singapore? It would be wonderful if you could pass on any tips on how to ensure your child is properly restrained and safe when travelling here and what you did to ensure your children were safe at all times.

Thanks!..."

This is much better.

Here is my reply:

When I lived in the States and owned 2 cars we had a baby seat that we would shift from one vehicle the other as appropriate.  We brought that with us to Singapore, and when one of our children was born here that is what we used to bring the baby home in (by taxi).

From the age of birth to about 1.5 years old or so the baby didn't travel by taxi at all.

From that age to the present when we travel by taxi we belt ourselves in and hold the child securely on our lap.  We find that taxi drivers are aware of the children and have never had issues  with a maniac driving at high speed or otherwise unsafely.

[Penwith]

From that age to the present when we travel by taxi we belt ourselves in and hold the child securely on our lap.  We find that taxi drivers are aware of the children and have never had issues  with a maniac driving at high speed or otherwise unsafely.

That is actually extremely dangerous.  In an accident you child would have been propelled forward and probably killed.  There is no way you could have held on to him/her.   You would have personally been ok as you were securely strapped in but your child was put in a very vulnerable position. From your post it looks like you're still doing this.  I urge you to do some research on the net to see how dangerous this is.  Seriously, for the sake of your children - please stop doing this and make sure they are strapped properly into a car seat or booster seat (if older).  Either that, or just use public transport.

[Vulcanl]

Mr. Porky,

"....If you are happy to discourse on the very important issue of child safety it would be wonderful if you could pass on any tips on how to ensure your child is properly restrained and safe when travelling here and what you did to ensure your children were safe at all times when they were aged between 2 and 5.

I can only imagine the truthful answer to this question will indeed lead to you painting yourself as an irresponsible parent or you would be more than happy to share your responsible behaviour with all the other parents and would be parents who read this post. If you don't answer it (truthfully) then its you that are painting the picture of yourself as an irresponsible parent, not me.  I'm just asking you a very simple question based on the very topic you yourself have started which for some unknown reason you have tried all manner of diversion tactics to avoid answering.

Honestly, you would be doing yourself more justice to just tell the truth. At least we could salvage the fact that you are a man that stands by his convictions, but you dont even have that going for you at the moment. And that's a pretty sad state of affairs when you consider this is just an internet forum and we are all anonymous. If you can't even tell the truth here when no one in the real world will find out you really are a bit of a sad case...."

You claim that you take a child seat with you when you travel for use in a taxi.  I don't believe you for one second.  I have travelled extensively and have not seen this to a great extent either.  Most families who would have a child that young would not travel at all unless absolutely necessary.

Now that I have answered your question, answer this one for me:

Do you believe that Singaporeans and other residents here who do NOT own cars (and represent the overwhelming majority of the population)  and do NOT take child seats with them into taxis are also irresponsible parents?

[~Mr Porky~]

What do you think would happen to your children if the taxi had an accident at 80 KPH on the AYE?

Let me put it another way..
Can you catch a 400 lbs object that is dropped from a six story roof?
When a car is in an accident, forces are multiplied many time over and the weight of an object goes up exponentially. You would not be able to hold your child if you were in an accident. (Regardless of how safe the taxi 'uncle' was driving.) Your child would effectively weigh many times as much as you do, due to their mass continuing to travel with the applied inertia.
so...your child would become a moving object in a suddenly stopped object.
Impossible to hold onto something, or someone, in this type of situation for anything over 5 miles per hour.

So knowing that now, if you went back in time would you do the same thing?

[Vulcanl]

Penwith,

"...In an accident you child would have been propelled forward and probably killed..."

Not necessarily - only if we are dealing with a high speed situation - but I take your point and it is a valid one

".....or just use public transport...."

This is always my preference, but not always possible