American debt hits 13T!

[Vulcanl]

T2K,

"...Do you really think people there will have anything close to what you or I would consider a good quality of life within the next two decades?  Really?..."

Why does their standard of living have to come even close to what 'we Westerners' would consider a 'good' quality of life?  Why wouldn't continuing improvement be enough? 

As I have mentioned in my decoupling thread, Western living standards will decrease during this time (the current SoL is unsustainable).

[T2K]

So far - "increasing quality of life" has followed the same trajectory as it did in Western countries and seems unlikely to deviate.  Consumer goods, more comfortable homes, cars, better public infrastructure, etc.

You can compare one to the other, one wins and one loses.

[Vulcanl]

T2K,

I couoldn't agree with you more re: there being winners and losers in this...if Asian SoL improves and Western SoL does the opposite (as it was unsustainable to begin with) then clearly Asia wins and the West 'loses'

[T2K]

That's correct IF Asian SoL goes WAY up and Western SoL goes WAY down.  That may well happen within my own lifetime (50 more years, give or take).  But there are so many ifs and maybes and stuff that could happen in between.  We'll see how it all works out.

For now and the foreseeable future, I would rather be in one of the small and cozy ex-Brit colonies (SG or HK), Japan, or "the West" for SoL.

[The ref]

Wrath,

It doesn't occur to you that under such a scenario (which is perfectly plausible btw) the USD collapses in value relative to whatever Asian currency emerges as the standard bearer  and thus the gap is further closed?

One conspiracy theory is that the US invaded Iraq because Iraq was threatening to sell oil in Euro.  After the US defaulted on the gold standard in 1971 the USD has remained the benchmark currency mainly through its trade strength  (esp with oil) and because nations have their reserves in USD.  If Iraq sold in Euro it gave other nations a way to remove their dependence on the USD and could cause the collapse of the dollar.

Following this theory (fun but a bit far fetched) then the US will invade any nation that threatens its currency.

[TheWrathOfGrapes]

Wrath,

It doesn't occur to you that under such a scenario (which is perfectly plausible btw) the USD collapses in value relative to whatever Asian currency emerges as the standard bearer  and thus the gap is further closed?

One conspiracy theory is that the US invaded Iraq because Iraq was threatening to sell oil in Euro.  After the US defaulted on the gold standard in 1971 the USD has remained the benchmark currency mainly through its trade strength  (esp with oil) and because nations have their reserves in USD.  If Iraq sold in Euro it gave other nations a way to remove their dependence on the USD and could cause the collapse of the dollar.

Following this theory (fun but a bit far fetched) then the US will invade any nation that threatens its currency.

The original codename for Operations Iraqi Freedom was Operations Iraqi Liberation - but they quickly realized that the initials gave the game away.

Jolly good idea - let's liberate any country that wants to take away the greenback's world currency role. 

Let's also exterminate any person who dares to talk down the US$. Mahathir wanted to replace the greenback with the Dinar and Vulcanl thinks the greenback is on the way down to oblivion.  So let's pulverize Mahathir and vulcanize Vulcan.

 

[The ref]

Jolly good idea - let's liberate any country that wants to take away the greenback's world currency role. 

Let's also exterminate any person who dares to talk down the US$. Mahathir wanted to replace the greenback with the Dinar and Vulcanl thinks the greenback is on the way down to oblivion.  So let's pulverize Mahathir and vulcanize Vulcan.

 

If we are going to vulcanize Vulcan maybne we should Manhandle Mahathir (or maul, mangle, manipulate, ...)

[TheWrathOfGrapes]

Jolly good idea - let's liberate any country that wants to take away the greenback's world currency role. 

Let's also exterminate any person who dares to talk down the US$. Mahathir wanted to replace the greenback with the Dinar and Vulcanl thinks the greenback is on the way down to oblivion.  So let's pulverize Mahathir and vulcanize Vulcan.

 

If we are going to vulcanize Vulcan maybne we should Manhandle Mahathir (or maul, mangle, manipulate, ...)

Since Mahathir is yet again racial baiting and inciting Malaysian Malays not to become like Singaporean Malays (as if that is a bad thing) and using Singapore as a bogeyman, maybe we should muzzle the mischievous, malevolent, megalomaniacal & Machiavellian Mohamad Mahathir.

[Dr. Phil]

The Chairman of the Fed Ben Bernanke and his predecessor the much hyped Greenspan have worked tirelessly and doggedly to destroy the greenback and indeed the US economy and the end of this long road may well be in sight.
(Incidentally the Fed is a private company and has no relation to the Federal Government)

US Trade Agreements have opened US doors to MNCs and US Joint Ventures and their cheap imports bear no additional manufacturing costs associated with Environmental Protection, Quality Assurance, Health & Safety, Training and other associated costs all of which are compulsory in USA and indeed in Europe. In fact if we manufactured many of these goods in Europe they would be banned from sale and doubtless law suits would not be far behind.

But the consequential demise in manufacturing in USA and EU, due to migration of industries to Asian cheap labour centres, has had many other effects; fiscal policies have been cut due to the fall in tax and import revenues which has caused public sector job losses and public spending on necessary projects has effectively reduced with a consequential fall in the quality of life - and also national security. In UK our Air Force is to be further reduced again and will be downsized to levels which existed at the start of WW1.

But who needs hindsight? We have seen it coming for several years and one day we will try to explain the logic of stimulus spending to our children's blank uncomprehending stares.

Yes, perhaps future generations will see it for what it always was, a stubborn and abject refusal by MNCs to let go of their super-profits earned in Asian sweat shops and the stimulus spending designed not to fix but to delay the inevitable like one big party before the bailiffs arrive? But MNCs are above the chaos and politicians do as they are commanded; conventional wisdom dictates that politicians lead the people.... by the nose?

With Europe having now firmly rejected the flawed logic of stimulus spending, the US has just announced it will embark on another round of stimulus spending; this being due to the collapse in economic "recovery" since the last round of stimulus spending ended. How surprising, I mean did anyone really think stimulus spending would fuel a recovery?  

Okay, so Ben and Bernie have USA almost on its knees, weakened and conditioned for anything including an Israeli air strike against Iran which will inevitably result in another war, just what the ailing US economy needs?
Well done, the Boys from Tel Aviv?  
 

[Vulcanl]

Dr. Phil,

I agree with everything you have stated.  The past few days myself I have been debating about how to make Corporations more accountable (see the 'Goldman' thread in the investments section). 

My suggestions have met with derision and jeers, and only yesterday did we truly have a valuable back and forth discussion about this.  In the end people continue to live with blinkers on, and the mere suggestion that there could be another way instantly leads to knee-jerk emotional defensive reactions.

We need to continue plugging away at this!  I for one will explain to my children/grandchildren what I DID to prevent the complete erosion of our liberties due to these out of control institutions.