Singapore - Love her or hate her

[TheWrathOfGrapes]

I have struggled with myself for sometime whether I should waste my time to pen this piece.  Long timers here will know that I have had quite a few friendly skirmishes with Kubes on this forum.  Kubes loves to take the Mickey out of Singapore.  Half the time he is wrong on facts. The rest of his posts have germs of truth in them, but the way he goes about spinning, sniping and spiting, the whole threads invariably degenerate into name calling, local vs expat, SG vs the rest of the world.

Again for old timers, they will recall that cactus used to be very bitter and negative about Singapore (correct me if I am wrong, cactus). After a long hiatus, he has recently re-surfaced and is a changed man.  Now, we can count those who are always picking faults and looking for that splinter in Singapore's eye: Kubes, $Pripps, Mr Porky, Mr Singapore, Mr Amazing, redacted.  Of course these are not unique visitors - some of them have split and multiple personalities.

Kubes and gang's mission is to put Singapore in its place, unspin the MSM's spins, and point out Singapore's warts and all.  Let me suggest that the law of diminishing return has already set in, and such crusades may in fact backfire. Doing it once is refreshing. Doing if every now and then is tolerable. But plugging at it day in and day out, hijacking innocent topics to rubbish Singapore - I think you guys are over-doing it.

Let me state where I stand in all these. Yes, Singapore press is embarrassingly pro-government.  They will put positive spins on most issues, avoid reports that are not flattering to the establishment, and sometime indulge in sensational reports on neighbouring countries. Both the Straits Times and the government are unapologetic and in fact are on record as saying that the media should play a development role, a pro-government role.

Kubes' hobby is poke fun at the local media's reports.  I can group several responses to Kubes' persistent sniping at the local press;

1) Expats - there is a clear divide here. There are those (like Vulcanl) who have localised and will defend Singapore when they perceive unfair attacks. There are neutrals like Old Mike and Dr Phil who will provide the other side of the coin. And of course there are the hard-core Kubes' gang who will bring up every sin SIN has committed, real or imaginary.

2) Local intelligensia - they are quietly smiling at this gang who are out to tell Singapore aand Singaporeans how to run Singapore. They are amused about these James Bond Journalist (if you don't know what this is, I suggest you read it up) wannabes who, having resided a few years here, think they know Singapore better than those who were born and bred here.  Really trying to teach their grandmothers how to suck eggs.

Just to let Kubes & gang know, these locals are well aware of the government's shortcoming, self congratulations and the press' spins. In fact, if you go to some of the local blogs and forums, you will see that the locals refer to Straits Times as the 154th, or the 133rd (sneeringly refering to the local media's world Press Freedom Index rankings). So, Kubes and gang - please tone down on your media bashing - Singaporeans are well aware of the situation.  In fact, it was David Marshall who called the local meda "prostitutes, running dogs and lackeys of the government", or words to that effect.

3) Local heartlanders - these are the poor citizens who have to bear the brunt of some of the bad policies - like stopping at two, then 4 or 5 if you can afford it, and the "foreign talent" policy (more on this later, or in the next thread).  So, Kubes, you don't have to keep rubbing in about Singapore's economic policy and MAS' incompetence. Where I stand - I agree that "growth at all cost" is wrong. Treating and running Singapore as a corporate entity is morally, socially and politically wrong. Do you think the older Singaporeans enjoy picking cardboard boxes, selling tissue papers and working double shifts or three jobs?

4) Local disgruntled - these are the people who are cheering Kubes and gang on.  Some are genuinely aggrieved, some are just anti-establishment and will egg anyone one as long as they "take" Singapore or the government on.  These locals and group 2) above are silently smiling to themselves: "Thank goodness for Kubes and gang for doing the dirty work for us.  These idiots think they are clever, but they are clueless."

If you guys bothered to read up on Singapore's early history, you may begin to understand Singapore's relationship with the foreign press. The FEER has been rooting for Singapore's demise since being kicked out of Malaysia. FEER thought Singapore wouldn't survive for long.  The same bunch of people now runs the Asia Sentinel. Go and see for yourself - very few positive articles on Singapore; mostly negative. And practically every article on China is negative.

So, how do I keep myself informed all these decades. I read both the local papers and the foreign press - one is unashamedly pro-Singapore and the other can sometimes be characterized as having huge axes to grind. So, by reading both, and reading between the lines, I get a pretty good picture.

Yes, there are crimes in Singapore. But relatively less than most countries. It was the police who had to come up with "low crime doesn't mean no crime" to remind people not to be complacent and forget commonsense precautions.

Yes, Singapore's growth on steroids is wrong. It is the locals who are suffering. Kubes, take it up offline with MAS - spare us your pontifications.

Kubes & gang - we hear what you have to say. We know your grouses with the local media and the government. We hear you loud and clear. The message has been sent. Do you need to keep doing this? It is getting very irritating.

P/S:

On the foreign talent policy - this is a bad policy and is back-firing. In the first 4 decades of development, Singapore did very well, and politicians were paid modest and decent salaries.  Foreigners have always been welcomed, but mostly for top positions where they are really needed. MNCs have been free to bring in CEOs, COOs, CCOs, and other C level executives.  And these are real talents.  However, in the last decade or so, the so-called "FT poliy" was articulated. What this means is that instead of the real top talents that were previously imported, the policy was tweaked to include middle and lower end managers. The result is a massive influx of foreign middle managers, and a tsunami of unskilled or low skill workers.

So, Kubes, don't flatter yourself as "foreign talent".  Many are fallen talents, who are either retrenched, or unable to find jobs in their own countries, who ended up here. The real talents of the good old day genre are too busy running their companies and operations to be able to spend hours on end on the forum arguing with strangers.
 
It is ironic, but I think there is some kind of poetic justice at work here. Locals have been quietly, and now not so quietly, complaining about the influx of foreigners and it took the government a long time to listen to their grievances. With the financial crisis, and with Kubes and gang constantly bad-mouthing government policies - I hope that the government has wised up and see where this FT policy is leading to. Those pseudo-talents who benefitted from a misconceived polity are the very ones attacking Singapore and bad-mouthing government policies.  The ingrates biting the hands that feed them.

Thick with irony - and poetic justice indeed.

[Kubes.SG]

The synthesis of your essay is "we ingrates are biting the hands that feed us".   I disagree.  Singapore provides me and my family absolutely nothing.  Everything we get or have here is provided only after we or our employer have paid heavily for it.  Nothing, absolutely NOTHING, has been provided to me or the Kubes family by Singapore or its Government.  Every dollar I earn comes from economic and business activities outside of Singapore.  On the other hand the Kubes' household contributes hundreds of thousands of dollars to SG, with our annual expenditures in SG.

-------

Your essay raises interesting ideas.  Let me add mine since this seems to be the thread to get philosophical.  BMs, don't get upset, this is not mean or against your guidelines.

Of the Singapore citizenry, there are three classes of people.  In India these would be called Castes, but let's stick with "class" for Singapore.  These only interact slightly but each are inter-dependent on the other classes to fulfill their goals and desires.  The first class is the Power Elite - of course there is one ruling family but there are also many thousands of political and bureaucratic functionaries that make up this class.  This class is certainly wealthy, but it's motivation is the power that comes from controlling and guiding the destiny of the country, and interactions with power elites elsewhere.   The second class is the mercantile and investment class - they don't care for politics or freedom or rights or equality or democracy, etc, their motivation is simple:  to accumulate as much wealth as they possibly can, any way they can.  The final class of Singaporean is the Heartlander.  By far the largest in number, they have little aspiration (or hope or opportunity) to move to the other classes and pretty much desire for a safe, clean and simple life, and to be protected from the perceived dangers of the rest of the world.

There are contracts between these classes, that keep the whole pyramid from falling down.  

The power elite need to be generous.  They create laws and tax systems that let the mercantile/investors make lots of money very easily while only charging them a small portion in taxes.  In return for that freedom to make money, the mercantile/investors don't ever get involved in politics or use their money to influence such matters, or disrupt the power elites' objectives.  The Heartlander class need help and the Power Elites' contract with them is to protect them from everything that might cause them alarm or insecurity.  Sure there is no official social security, but the range of financial, social support provided like during the GFC, plus decent health, education and security means those needs have been largely met.  In return the Heartlanders give the Power Elites the votes they need to stay in power.

There is no question that this three-way unspoken arrangement has worked well for Singapore since creation.  The data supports it.

The problem we have seen develop over the last few years is that one of these Classes is feeling it is not being looked after - it is missing out.  The heartlanders are now not feeling safe, secure and comfortable.  There are too many FWs taking their jobs and pulling down their salaries, while at the same time the cost of living in SG has skyrocketed to the point that Heartlanders are really suffering.  

The Power Elites have lost balance that had kept everyone pretty much happy.

I do worry about the potential for Singapore because what has worked in the past will not continue to work in the future.  Things must change.

[TheWrathOfGrapes]

Kubes - you still don't get it. I hear you.  I heard you, many times over. Yes, you and your family single-handedly propped up the Singapore economy - for that Singapore ought to be grateful. I am just saying that you constant sniping has gone on long enough.  Give it a rest, won't you?

[$Pripps]

This must probably must be the funniest I have read in a long time here, do you seriously think that your post will change what and how people write here?

Please go and have a beer and chill out, you definitely have been sitting too long in front of the computer.

[TheWrathOfGrapes]

Hmmm, right on cue. Thick with irony.

[$Pripps]

Well I do agree with this

The real talents of the good old day genre are too busy running their companies and operations to be able to spend hours on end on the forum arguing with strangers.

[TheWrathOfGrapes]

Well I do agree with this

The real talents of the good old day genre are too busy running their companies and operations to be able to spend hours on end on the forum arguing with strangers.

Glad you agree - this one is specifically directed at Kubes who thinks that his family's contribution is so significant that Singapore economy will collapse if they move out.  BTW, do you realize today is Saturday?

 

[Kubes.SG]

Well I do agree with this

The real talents of the good old day genre are too busy running their companies and operations to be able to spend hours on end on the forum arguing with strangers.

Glad you agree - this one is specifically directed at Kubes who thinks that his family's contribution is so significant that Singapore economy will collapse if they move out.  BTW, do you realize today is Saturday?

 

Grapes:

I hope I can find it and pretty sure that I kept a copy of a report by the SG Stats Dept along with MAS and some academics released that analyzed the economic contribution to the SG economy of FTs versus locals - that was just part of the report.  What is showed even shocked me that FTs, only a few hundred thousand of us, provided a higher total economic contribution to SG than the millions of heartlanders.  I did not expect the FT impact to be so incredible significant.

The data is there, the SG Govt knows it.  A nice clean safe environment that Expats would like is the entire foundation of the Singapore's past success, and future success.   We are far more important to Singapore, than Singapore is to us.  Very few of these expat FTs are here because of love of Singapore or a Singaporean and actually become Singaporeans.  Why is that?  This is also a massive issue for Singapore. 

In Australia most, yes MOST FTs become citizens because they connect with the country, it's values, it's people and the policies.  Even V will not become a Singaporean has he would give up to many rights and opportunities.  The SG FTs are mercenary and will move when ever we decide too.

[TheWrathOfGrapes]

Well I do agree with this

The real talents of the good old day genre are too busy running their companies and operations to be able to spend hours on end on the forum arguing with strangers.

$Pripps, I have never considered myself a talent, unlike the narcissistic Kubes who is under the illusion and delusion that he is God's gift to Singapore. If he has to keep boasting about his family's expenditure in Singapore, then he has totally lost the plot. Just for his info, my taxes alone is higher than his family's expenditure here. And I am a non talent - I am glad I am not in his circle.

[TheWrathOfGrapes]

Well I do agree with this

The real talents of the good old day genre are too busy running their companies and operations to be able to spend hours on end on the forum arguing with strangers.

$Pripps, some interesting and eye-opening statistics for you - number of posts per day:
redacted -- 6.750
pinzon -- 2.400
$Pripps - 1.456
Vulcanl -- 1.408
Kubes -- 0.630
TWOG -- 0.367

And no, these only take a minute or so - click on the nicks and the data will pop out.

[$Pripps]

Well I do agree with this

The real talents of the good old day genre are too busy running their companies and operations to be able to spend hours on end on the forum arguing with strangers.

$Pripps, some interesting and eye-opening statistics for you - number of posts per day:
redacted -- 6.750
pinzon -- 2.400
$Pripps - 1.456
Vulcanl -- 1.408
Kubes -- 0.630
TWOG -- 0.367

And no, these only take a minute or so - click on the nicks and the data will pop out.

I think a more relevant measure would be time spent online/words. According to the site I am here 1.38 min per day on the average since I joined.

(and for the record, I am also not a FT per se, I kind of just ended up here due to amorous circumstances).

[T2K]

I don't always agree with Kubes, but I am glad to read his posts for his perspective (which is generally polite and backed up with logical arguments).  He does a good job of explaining the man behind the curtain here in SingOz.

I agree with Vulcan only rarely, but I appreciate his posts all the same.  He's unfailingly polite and he does respond to questions, albeit a bit evasively sometimes! (Singapore wasn't on the list!)

It's not so much WHAT you write, but HOW you write it.  No viewpoint or opinion should be suppressed, but all should be expressed in a literate and polite manner (in my opinion).

I don't get into these debates a lot, it seems like all these conversations have been rehashed so many times.  I've been based in Singapore since 1998 (and on this board since 1999), and I've paid hundreds of thousands of S$ in taxes to this country.

The only thing I want to add is that my response to TWOG's statement about "the type of expats in SG now vs 10 years ago" is that from my view A) there are a lot LESS western expat middle managers now than 12 years ago, but more Indians and mainland Chinese and B) 12 years ago people were saying that the "type of expat" in Singapre was much deteriorated from years before.  Same old, same old.  Nothing new under the sun, as usual.

[Aliya]

I've been here a long time, 10 years now and the thing that still drives me to drink is the banking system. It just doesn't seem to work, it certainly hasnt really modernised and is slowing driving me mad.

Two issues come to my tiny mind:

1.  Not being able to use your NETS card in a bank ATM machine that is not your bank.  When we moved here 10 years ago we were told that this was going to change and yes Singaporee was going to catch up with the rest of the world.  I mean you have been able to do this in lil old New Zealand for 15 years!  But still NO ability to do so.  Why not?

2.  We have noticed the rise of "cash or credit card only, NETS cannot" attitude in shops here.   Why is this?  I am talking big Singapore companies.  Or try buying on NETS at the airport.  Again, why is this?  Isnt NETS much cheaper than credit card rates?

In all other things, well Singapore is clean and its safe, the tax is low, the weather is nice.

But I still find it amusing the govt spin on expats.  One minute we are chopped liver, the next we are needed.  Then there is the debate about which expats should Sing have.  I have noticed a real rise in single expats as opposed to family groups coming over.  Cost related?  Must be.  And then recently the article by Mr Goh I think that Singaporens can work as hard as 3 foreign workers and therefore Singapore doesnt really need foreign workers.  Hmmm.

[redacted]

At this time, I would like to point out all my views are not negative and have tried to help people.

I have struggled with myself for sometime whether I should waste my time to pen this piece.  Long timers here will know that I have had quite a few friendly skirmishes with Kubes on this forum.  Kubes loves to take the Mickey out of Singapore.  Half the time he is wrong on facts. The rest of his posts have germs of truth in them, but the way he goes about spinning, sniping and spiting, the whole threads invariably degenerate into name calling, local vs expat, SG vs the rest of the world.

To blame the the sniping on this forum on a group of people who have a legitimate view on Singapore is a bit strange. It a bit like saying the Democrats would have a better ride without the Republicans.

Kubes and gang's mission is to put Singapore in its place, unspin the MSM's spins, and point out Singapore's warts and all.  Let me suggest that the law of diminishing return has already set in, and such crusades may in fact backfire. Doing it once is refreshing. Doing if every now and then is tolerable. But plugging at it day in and day out, hijacking innocent topics to rubbish Singapore - I think you guys are over-doing it.

I doubt anybody who writes on this forum expects to change Singapore. If people want to accept an anonymous point of view, its up to them. More often than not, its not this "axis of hate" hijacking the threads. They post an opposing view and they are attacked for it. It is fair for us to defend our view.

Let me state where I stand in all these. Yes, Singapore press is embarrassingly pro-government.  They will put positive spins on most issues, avoid reports that are not flattering to the establishment, and sometime indulge in sensational reports on neighbouring countries. Both the Straits Times and the government are unapologetic and in fact are on record as saying that the media should play a development role, a pro-government role.

So it makes it right for a government to use this tool for their own good?

Kubes' hobby is poke fun at the local media's reports.  I can group several responses to Kubes' persistent sniping at the local press;

1) Expats - there is a clear divide here. There are those (like Vulcanl) who have localised and will defend Singapore when they perceive unfair attacks. There are neutrals like Old Mike and Dr Phil who will provide the other side of the coin. And of course there are the hard-core Kubes' gang who will bring up every sin SIN has committed, real or imaginary.

2) Local intelligensia - they are quietly smiling at this gang who are out to tell Singapore aand Singaporeans how to run Singapore. They are amused about these James Bond Journalist (if you don't know what this is, I suggest you read it up) wannabes who, having resided a few years here, think they know Singapore better than those who were born and bred here.  Really trying to teach their grandmothers how to suck eggs.

Just to let Kubes & gang know, these locals are well aware of the government's shortcoming, self congratulations and the press' spins. In fact, if you go to some of the local blogs and forums, you will see that the locals refer to Straits Times as the 154th, or the 133rd (sneeringly refering to the local media's world Press Freedom Index rankings). So, Kubes and gang - please tone down on your media bashing - Singaporeans are well aware of the situation.  In fact, it was David Marshall who called the local meda "prostitutes, running dogs and lackeys of the government", or words to that effect.

3) Local heartlanders - these are the poor citizens who have to bear the brunt of some of the bad policies - like stopping at two, then 4 or 5 if you can afford it, and the "foreign talent" policy (more on this later, or in the next thread).  So, Kubes, you don't have to keep rubbing in about Singapore's economic policy and MAS' incompetence. Where I stand - I agree that "growth at all cost" is wrong. Treating and running Singapore as a corporate entity is morally, socially and politically wrong. Do you think the older Singaporeans enjoy picking cardboard boxes, selling tissue papers and working double shifts or three jobs?

4) Local disgruntled - these are the people who are cheering Kubes and gang on.  Some are genuinely aggrieved, some are just anti-establishment and will egg anyone one as long as they "take" Singapore or the government on.  These locals and group 2) above are silently smiling to themselves: "Thank goodness for Kubes and gang for doing the dirty work for us.  These idiots think they are clever, but they are clueless."

1) People have a right to a view. Yes sometime we may go overboard, but same can be said for the "pro" Singapore group.

2) The mass really don't know. Some might, probably those who have lived or studied in the West.

3) Every time Kubez or anyone has made a statement like that, there are people rubbishing them.

4) I'm sure there are locals who think like that too. I also hear more complaints day by day from locals, but they don't do anything about it.

If you guys bothered to read up on Singapore's early history, you may begin to understand Singapore's relationship with the foreign press. The FEER has been rooting for Singapore's demise since being kicked out of Malaysia. FEER thought Singapore wouldn't survive for long.  The same bunch of people now runs the Asia Sentinel. Go and see for yourself - very few positive articles on Singapore; mostly negative. And practically every article on China is negative.

And why should that have anything to do now? There are papers all over the world negative to certain politics and they are still around and not sued for libel.

Kubes & gang - we hear what you have to say. We know your grouses with the local media and the government. We hear you loud and clear. The message has been sent. Do you need to keep doing this? It is getting very irritating.

So what your saying is we should keep our views to our self while people unrealistically talk this place up?

So, Kubes, don't flatter yourself as "foreign talent".  Many are fallen talents, who are either retrenched, or unable to find jobs in their own countries, who ended up here. The real talents of the good old day genre are too busy running their companies and operations to be able to spend hours on end on the forum arguing with strangers.

Ouch.

It is ironic, but I think there is some kind of poetic justice at work here. Locals have been quietly, and now not so quietly, complaining about the influx of foreigners and it took the government a long time to listen to their grievances. With the financial crisis, and with Kubes and gang constantly bad-mouthing government policies - I hope that the government has wised up and see where this FT policy is leading to. Those pseudo-talents who benefitted from a misconceived polity are the very ones attacking Singapore and bad-mouthing government policies.  The ingrates biting the hands that feed them.

Thick with irony - and poetic justice indeed.

True, I have benefited. As I have said before I am here for the money and nothing else. Singapore would not be where it is now without these foreigners and will need them long into the future. Singaporeans need someone to blame.

While you may find these comments irritating, others may find the constant talk up irritating too. Perhaps as the "pro" lobby always use the classic Airport!, perhaps the "anti" lobby should be using Citizenship? How many would really have the balls to follow through?

[Vulcanl]

Wrath,

That was a well written piece and a welcome contribution.  I agree with about 80% of what you have written. 

T2K,

Thanks.  I have no issues with differing opinions, when respectfully presented and argued.

Count me as a member of the 'Love Her' camp (no surprise there).  This place has its issues but it has allowed me to provide for my family, and then some - for which I will always be grateful. 

Most of the slagging of Singapore on this board comes from posters who hail from the Western developed countries.  As we all know, these countries for the most part (and with a few exceptions) have severely shot themselves in the foot and we are looking at decades to get things righted again - IF our leaders show some spine and tell their constituents that there never was a free ride to being with and the piper has to be paid (that is a big IF).

This is a valid issue, as the Singapore story is to be held up for regional emulation.  This rock had nothing going for it but a hungry populace and a strong leader who knew where he wanted to take his nation.  Singapore deserves its props.  Sometimes they go overboard with this, but I wonder how many countries in their situation would behave differently?

Finally, with regard to Wrath's comments about the man on the street, they can apply to any country on Earth.  All countries operate on some version of the 'caste' system.  In a nutshell methinks that Singaporeans complain too much.