Fricker gets 5 months jail & 3 strokes of cane over vandalism charges

[sigh]

Mate, you are speaking through your hat. Singaporeans do not regularly cane their children. In fact the kids are generally very loved.

If you had grown up in Australia, you would have known known "strap", the "cane" and the "belt".

If you went to a CBC, you would have had a fun time with the brothers. Wonder if any can remember "Black Fridays" when the whole school got the "whack".

Of course Singaporeans love their children! Good grief!

The examples you gave were of 20, 30 or 50 years ago in Western countries when people were strapped or caned at schools or whatever. This does not occur anymore and has not for many years. It is a stupid comparison.

To this day, parents here cane their children. My local colleagues have no qualms about it and openly discuss it. You can buy the canes in HDB shops, for goodness sakes.

[to hsgreenb]

So you just blindly go along with things right or wrong...and in this case sooooo wrong? Guest in this country or not you have an opinion surely. Many many horrific incidents in history where people just 'went along' because it was what the government said...

[Also to hsgreenb]

What a lemming you are. Following blindly something because someone said it has to be this way. People like you are such cowards, disgusting.

[KentBrockman]

This moron should be in jail for 3 yrs and gotten 10 strokes of the cane. He's a 32 yr old breaking into a train yard to do graffiti! Honestly, the cane should smack some of the sense into him that his parents hadn't. Guy is a deviant moron and deserves to be fired and deported for such actions. Honestly, what the heck is this guy thinking?

[shrink paradise]

part of 'discipline', respect and self-regulation is because some kids knew the cane.

time outs do not work in many cases. nor does emphasizing everything positive.

just check out all the attitudes, the 'whatevers', the many behavorial (and disruptive) problems in kids back home in respective homeland public schools.

it's the difference in how SG teachers can handle 40 students in a classroom vs "i am so stressed, let's strike" teachers with 22 kids back home.

[wrong discussion!]

There's no point in debating the relative merits or otherwise of caning as a punishment!  The fact is that this is an accepted form of punishment here and its use is widely known.  Anyone who lives here has to abide by the laws or face the consequences - however distasteful some of us may find that to be.  The Swiss guy did the crime - he now must pay the price.  Simple

[Best post on this topic]

There's no point in debating the relative merits or otherwise of caning as a punishment!  The fact is that this is an accepted form of punishment here and its use is widely known.  Anyone who lives here has to abide by the laws or face the consequences - however distasteful some of us may find that to be.  The Swiss guy did the crime - he now must pay the price.  Simple

so far. Absolutely spot on!

[TheWrathOfGrapes]

There's no point in debating the relative merits or otherwise of caning as a punishment!  The fact is that this is an accepted form of punishment here and its use is widely known.  Anyone who lives here has to abide by the laws or face the consequences - however distasteful some of us may find that to be.  The Swiss guy did the crime - he now must pay the price.  Simple

While one must abide by the laws in another country, which I think is fine, its crazy to suggest it should not be debated or discussed.

That's like saying nobody should talk about the laws in North Korea or Zimbabwe or Americas involvement in Iraq.

redacted - "wrong discussion" said "no point" in debating.  That is very different from your "nobody should talk about..."  We can argue until the cows come home on this, and the Singapore authority is not going to do anything about it. So it is pointless. If intervention by the POTUS Bill Clinton could not spare Michael Fay's butts (only managed to get it reduced by a few strokes), what makes you think debating or discussing it here is going to influence government policy?  No point. Pointless. Period.

If anything, knowing how the courts work here, if that Fricking adult-adolescent were to appeal, he will probably get his sentence doubled and the number of strokes increased.  Singapore is very prickly when it comes to such matters where there is a perception of interference.

Sorry for the pun, but different strokes for different folks.  No ifs and buts, but the butts get the strokes.  And he did not just deface properties.  He broke in by cutting the fence.  Breaking and entering. So, the breaking of his butt skin will most likely be entering his brain the next time he thinks of repeating his stunts.

If I were the Swiss authority, I would probably be saying to myself "thank you Singapore, for disciplining my wayward son".

[Kubes.SG]

Grapes.  So you think that SG has got it right and that 5 strokes of the cane and 5 months in jail is a fair punishment for B&E and graffiti.   Interesting.

So that the rest of us can put this into perspective, what would you say are appropriate punishments for each of these two example crimes:

1) a Doctor who gets drunk to more than 3 times the legal limit, then drives her car along the highways until she falls asleep at the wheel, crashes the car and is found by police in a drunken stupor in her car with the engine running stopped in the middle lane of the PIE?

2) Or how about an ethnic Chinese woman editor of a local Chinese newspaper, who while driving her car and talking on her hand-phone, ran a red light at the intersection of Adam and Bukit Timah Road and hit a motorbike killing the woman pillion rider and seriously injuring the rider. 

What would be appropriate punishment for each of these crimes? 

[Scummy Mummy]

Immediate cessation of chocolate rations, I imagine.

[TheWrathOfGrapes]

Kubes - once again, off you go - off tangent and flying off the handle.  I say again, learn how to read - first engage brain, then engage the keyboard. My comments were directed at redacted whose comments was directed at "wrong discussion!"

My point is - it is pointless trying to persuade the Singapore authority otherwise. You are here long enough and you ought to know better by now - gunboat diplomacy or loudspeaker diplomacy does not work with Singapore.

Singapore has its own peculiarities, its own policies and its own internal politics. Its policies worked for Singapore.  Don't try to persuade them to adopt your policies. You can almost hear the SG politicos saying "who are you with your trains and back alleys (and even shop fronts) all covered with graffiti to tell Singapore how to run her own business?".  Singapore's set of rules, regulations, laws and policies work for Singapore.  Period. No amount of lobbying by outside groups, special interest groups, other governments or plain goody-two-shoes are going to change their mind.

It has been tried every year for the past decades by Amnesty International, ILO, RSF, the US State Department, etc, publishing all kinds of reports condemning this or that part of the draconian laws, but to no avail.  Singapore will rather part company with these organizations than to subject itself to outside interference.

Singapore will keep its Internal Security Act, its capital punishment for drug trafficking, robbery with fire arms, kidnapping etc.  It will continue to cane vandals.  These are the laws. These are published and all ought to know.  My point is - it is futile trying to change it through lobbying.

It has been done umpteen times throughout the decades, and it is pointless. Private persuasion may work to modify some policies.  Public protestation certainly will back-fire.  If anything, outside pressure will just have the opposite effect with SG hardening its stand.

Left alone, and with the next generation of leaders, some of them may come to realize that some policies need to be repealed, some refined and some revamped. But on Singapore's own terms. Certainly not through protestation by a certain kube from down under.

[jalanperak]

I have a somewhat different take on this (and I can already hear Kubes saying "rubbish" :-).

Vandalism as rebellious urban art has a long history, and I don't think anyone would disagree that this act of vandalism was intended to make a statement. The artists made a rather bold (and, in my opinion, rather nicely painted) statement to the Singapore "authorities." They managed to get this message out, and it was visible to the public for a couple of days. But the value of this message is proportional to the risk they took, and how much the "authorities" don't want the message spread. Anyone can paint a nice bit of graffiti on the officially sanctioned "graffiti wall," but what's the value in that? That isn't serious rebel art at all. A big part of the value of this art is the risk someone takes to get the art out to the public. If there's little risk, or if caught, little risk of punishment, then the value of the art is greatly diminished.

In this context, painting graffiti on New York subway cars is is pretty "small time," because the penalties for getting caught are so trivial. In comparison, painting graffiti on Singapore MRT cars is pretty much the pinnacle of achievement, because the penalties for getting caught are so severe. The judge alluded to this in sentencing, and "the game" as I see it goes along the lines of, "OK, you guys do this all over the world, and no one has done it yet in Singapore because we're so strict. You figured you'd thumb your noses at us and show us up. No problem. You did it, and you managed to thumb your noses at us for a couple of days. But you got caught, so now it's our turn to show you that our strict reputation is justified. You played the game, you lost, and now you get to pay the price." I can't know for sure about Fricker's motives, but I do suspect that diminishing the penalties for Fricker's graffiti, especially the caning, would diminish the value of Fricker and his partner's statement. Would a true artist want that?  

As a side note, I suspect Fricker is more concerned about the length of his jail time than the caning. He knows he got the minimum there, and it's not likely to go down. But five months of income for him is probably significant, especially since it looks like he still has a job once he returns to Switzerland.

[Kubes.SG]

Grapes:  In my post today, I did not go spinning off on a tangent (like you did), I did not suggest SG follow first world judicial practices, I did not even say that SG has got it wrong.

I stated what I thought was your position, and then asked you to explain if you though the punishment fit the crime compared to two of serious crimes - 1 that could have caused death and the other that did actually cause death.

I am not suggesting that other countries are perfect, but to see a trivial property damage crime resulting in corporal punishment and incarceration for 5 months, when crimes that risk death, and actually resulted in death, cop mere fines as punishment is massively unfair and incredibly out of balance.  I would say the same if it happened in my or your country.

--------

In your rabid defense of the SG judicial system (are you on the payroll now, or up for PR renewal?) you claim that nothing external influences SG so why bother.  I think you are wrong.  The torture of the US teen 16 years ago did massive damage to the SG "brand and equity" and though the Swiss leader will not act like Clinton did, there will still be massive amounts of negative press coverage in WE and the developed world if they do go ahead and torture the Swiss crim.

So SG has get out of this awkward bind.  How to look tough domestically, and civilized to the first world?  Fricker has been found guilty and the punishment is set, but an appeal has been logged.  SG cannot again damage it's image, so in the appeal it will be discovered that Fricker has a significant and long-term back injury that if tortured could result in permanent disability.  So the new punishment from the appeal will be no caning, but extended time in jail, maybe doubled time.  That way SG authorities and judiciary can be seen to be very tough, unrelenting, independent, but also fair and compassionate.  

Just you watch.

[TheWrathOfGrapes]

There you go again. Learn how to read and comprehend. All I am saying is that any external pressure for change will come to nought.  That's all. I am saying it works for Singapore - may be draconian and barbaric to you - but, hey, it worked, it works and it is working. Change will come slowly, internally, and on SG's own terms.

I thought that Fricking guy got 3 strokes and not the 5 strokes that you gratuitously granted.

Oh, so now he has a back injury. And maybe he was sexually assaulted when he was young.

SG is in no bind at all. Not some rabid protestions like yours. Yes, let's watch, shall we? You can galvanize Amnesty International, the US State Department and the Swiss Government to pressure Singapore and see what Fricker will get. Let's have a bet since this is World Cup season - he will still get his 3 strokes minimum.

[redacted]

There's no point in debating the relative merits or otherwise of caning as a punishment! 

This is the statement I disagree with. Be it or not, the post has moved away from a singular instance into a wider ranging one.

The fact is that this is an accepted form of punishment here and its use is widely known.   Simple

You will see I actually agreed with this.

I am well aware that no policies will change due to anonymous expats on a forum extolling their values.

To say something is futile and not worth talking about is a bit sad though.