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ExpatSingapore Message Board 13 February 2012, 13:22:02 pm *
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Author Topic: China says "You're not in trouble, it's only $430 billion"  (Read 4304 times)
The Hedgehog
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« Reply #15 on: 01 September 2010, 22:32:20 pm »
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Hey wazziz, thanks for the shout out. When you're ready to join the ranks of the high-rollin wheelers and dealers, just give this old China hand a ring-a-ling and I'll hook you up with a little one on one with those in the know. Oh, do you still have my beer bong, Dude?

The Hedgehog
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« Reply #15 on: 01 September 2010, 22:32:20 pm »
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Ride em cowboy
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« Reply #16 on: 01 September 2010, 23:53:41 pm »
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When we go out for a beer, we dont talk about finance all night long, some talk about girls, golf, country clubs, sentosa (the playground of the biggest names in finance and the richest people in asia) cars (who doesnt like to talk about cars). Sentosa is usually the hottest topic.

But yes often the conversation does turn to money, property, shares, EM's, global funds etc you name it.  As a rule, the more beer that we drink, the less we tallk about the serious stuff.  If you have ever had a karaoke night out with property agents, you will know what I mean.

Now back to the thread subject matter - if things in China are looking shaky then we may feel some effect here perhaps a slight softening of the market but hey look, lets not get too carried away until we get the facts.  I havent caught up with the boys yet, but I shall get the full story from them.  I am talking here about guys who work up there and live there half of the year and wheel & deal in all sorts of stuff. I have one buddy called The Hedgehog and well known in the financial industry..he loves football, girls, fast cars and what he doesnt know about hedge funds just aint worth knowing.

Just now personally I am watching what is happening in North America.  One of my friends gets back from NY this weekend as well come to think of it..

Sentosa. "the playground of the biggest names in finance and the richest people in asia". For goodness sake don't let them swim in the sea then, or 'castrol GTX' as it's chemically defined. There'd be another recession if they all caught TB or typhoid from swimming there.
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Kubes.SG
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« Reply #17 on: 02 September 2010, 10:07:02 am »
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So many gems from Wazzziz I too am wondering if he might be a comedic character created to entertain us all.

The best line for me was:  "a karaoke night out with property agents"    I am kind of reeling trying to imagine what that would be like, probably up there with:  "going bowling with garbage collectors";   "shooting pool with used car salesmen";   "taking cooking lessons with teenage ADHD sufferers".
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The object in life is not to be on the side of the Majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the Insane.
to kind
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« Reply #18 on: 02 September 2010, 10:13:02 am »
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So many gems from Wazzziz I too am wondering if he might be a comedic character created to entertain us all.

The best line for me was:  "a karaoke night out with property agents"    I am kind of reeling trying to imagine what that would be like, probably up there with:  "going bowling with garbage collectors";   "shooting pool with used car salesmen";   "taking cooking lessons with teenage ADHD sufferers".

Kubes. You are way too kind.

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Vulcanl
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« Reply #19 on: 02 September 2010, 12:43:42 pm »
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Kubes,

No - this would be YOU  Grin:

"...I too am wondering if he might be a comedic character created to entertain us all..."

Personally I find your posts WAY more entertaining (like the one where you were shitting your pants in late 2008/early 2009 about SG's GDP crashing by 15% or more in 2009, or around mid-year last year where you predicted a crash in EM equities markets in 2009, or your prediction about SG property this year, only to be retracted with your tail between your legs to the tone of [I may be 6 months early on this])

No, Matey...YOU are the laugh-riot around here!!  Cheesy

All the same you know how I feel about you  Kiss

Here is brief but interesting piece about China.  As I have stated before, no one really knows exactly what is going there, but I am betting that China is NOT a bubble.  It is the real thing:

China Cheat Sheet Helps Investors Survive: Ben Simpfendorfer
2010-09-01 19:00:00.0 GMT


Commentary by Ben Simpfendorfer
     Sept. 2 (Bloomberg) -- Ten years ago, China barely registered on global financial markets. Today, it is front and center. Yet, the market’s understanding of the world’s second- largest economy has struggled to catch up. It is big, foreign, and suffers from a serious lack of economic data, meaning speculation can be as important as fact.
     So here are five simple points that go a long way to understanding one of the world’s most complex places:

     First, China doesn’t publish gross-domestic-product data in the same way as other countries. It publishes a growth rate, but no quarterly breakdown of real demand. It is one of two Asian nations that don’t publish such data. The other one is Laos.
     This is a problem. National-accounts data is an economist’s most important tool. It shows how much consumers have spent on food, or companies have spent building factories. It is the breakdown that helps us understand if the composition of growth is healthy or reliant on just a few sources of demand.
      In the case of China, there is a risk the country is spending too much on building highways and factories, resulting in overcapacity and bad debts. And since there is no reliable quarterly data on such investment spending, it is hard to understand whether last year’s rocket-fuelled recovery has only worsened imbalances.
      So when third-quarter growth figures are released in early October, it’s worth attaching a health warning to the report.

     Second, food almost always explains surprise changes in the consumer-price index. Part of the problem is that the average Chinese household is more likely to purchase fresh food to be cooked at home. By contrast, in neighboring Hong Kong, food eaten in restaurants accounts for half of the food sub-index, so labor and rental costs help to damp the impact of a sudden increase in fresh-food prices. Not so in China, where fresh-pork prices alone, for instance, can visibly shift the CPI.
      The upshot is that the country’s weather patterns, rather than its economic cycle, are arguably more important in forecasting the CPI.

     Third, China’s domestic demand provides less support to the global economy than popularly believed. Its imports have surged in the past decade, but it’s important to understand what exactly the country is buying.
      About a third of imports are destined for the re-export trade. Chinese factories buy semi-conductors and mother *** from producers in Singapore and Taiwan, for instance, assembling them into notebook personal computers, and then shipping the finished good to retail shops in the U.S. and Europe.
     Almost another third is commodities. China accounts for much of the world’s demand for many raw materials and is the main buyer of iron ore. Its commodity imports benefit countries such as Australia, Brazil, Chile and South Africa, even as this trade inflates prices for other importers.
      The final third is made up of goods such as turbines from Germany, excavators from Japan, and aircraft from the U.S. These are the real drivers of global growth. Yet, such imports were valued at only $430 billion in 2009. To put that into perspective, Korea’s imports were worth $320 billion in the same year -- not much less.

     Fourth, China is big, but poor. Its per-capita GDP is $6,600, as measured by purchasing power parity. Yet, this still ranks China alongside Algeria and Namibia in terms of wealth.
     Moreover, much of the country’s growth has so far benefited companies, rather than households. That’s one of the downsides of a low-cost business model. Exports and corporate profits have surged, but low wages have generally depressed private consumption and created social stresses.
     It’s no surprise then that the government is now aggressively trying to address these imbalances, by lifting minimum wages and improving working conditions. The focus on raising wages and preventing job losses is one reason China has yet to revalue its currency, as critics have demanded, and why it is likely to resist such calls in the future.

     Fifth, structural-growth drivers are as important as cyclical ones. The liberalization of China’s housing industry in 1998, for instance, explains much of the country’s surging growth. Until then, the state provided most of the housing stock. But reforms allowed households to buy bigger and better homes, and property developers built them.
      It might be that the structural drivers are now being overwhelmed by cyclical ones and that China is experiencing a housing bubble no different from those of the U.K. and U.S. If so, the bears will soon be proven right as the bubble bursts and China’s decade-long boom will be brought to a screeching halt.
But if the bears are proven wrong, it will be because of the emergence of new structural drivers.
      Urbanization is one such driver. Some analysts say China’s urban population will grow by 15 million people annually over the next 10 years, implying an extra 5 million apartments annually -- a huge source of demand.
     Services are another. China’s manufacturing is still the largest driver of growth, but there are the early signs of an emerging services sector, from car rental to cinema multiplexes.

     These five points are by no way exhaustive. But China is unusual compared with many of the world’s largest economies, perhaps because of the country’s status as a developing, Asian, or formerly planned economy. The usual set of analytical tools won’t always apply, however tempting it is to do so.

     (Ben Simpfendorfer is the chief China economist at Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc in Hong Kong and the author of “The New Silk Road.” The opinions expressed are his own.)
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get help
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« Reply #20 on: 02 September 2010, 12:52:56 pm »
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My life outside of home ?  Yes I do hang out with a lot of my contacts - networking is the way things work out here.

Wazzis me old china.

We all know you are writing for either comedic effect or due to some neurological trauma.

If on the outside chance you are in fact a real person - with this lifestory and employment situation

1) you clearly cannot afford to hang out with "the boys" on your meager rental income
2) Anyone worth a damn wouldn't want to hang with such a wannabe.
3) Partying with property agents is just about the most ridiculous thing anyone has ever thought to mutter on this board.
4) no one, & I mean no one cares what you are watching, or thinking.
If you are real, you have defined yourself as the smallest of the small, unemployable & broke.
I know you are a legend in your own mind & in wazzis head-land you are probably a regular interviewee on CNBC and bloomberg.

5) your fantasies about Ron Jeremy (the hedgehog) are disturbing


you need to seek help as to why you are making all this stuff up. It's not good for you.
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err Vulcan
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« Reply #21 on: 02 September 2010, 14:04:15 pm »
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You do realise that an awful lot of that article directly undermines your decoupling theory right?
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Vulcanl
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« Reply #22 on: 02 September 2010, 14:05:56 pm »
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err Vulcan,

I don't agree.  How so?  please explain...
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The Hedgehog
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« Reply #23 on: 02 September 2010, 16:00:55 pm »
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Wazziz,

We missed you last night mate at the Hedge Fund Mega Players' happy hour in Siglap (dude, they even kept the 2 for 1 Tigers going for us for 30 extra minutes, that was epic!).

We networked a lot with each other since, as you know, we're all in the know about the situation.  If we don't know it, it's well and truly not worth knowing.  Know what I'm sayin, bro?  Hell yeah!

It got even wilder when that crew of property agents showed up!  You know those guys - Lee, Kee, Wong, Chong, Chang and Wang.  We networked into high gear with them at the pool table, they told us all about how the CBD is going to like double or triple in price in the next 12 days.  I'm watching that closely, and I suggest you do too.  But keep that to yourself mate, we can't have all the plebs in on this hot info, innit?

We'll get together soon at Jack's Place for some prime cuts with some other market makers and industry trend setters, like we did last night (I've got a coupon).

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wazzziz
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« Reply #24 on: 02 September 2010, 16:04:26 pm »
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If youve ever heard 4 or 5 agents doing Unchained Melody in with karaoke girls dribbling all over them after downing a bottle of Jack Daniels, you will know what funny is.  These guys know how to party and can drink anyone under the table.  Not that I think that this is a good thing.

Our nights out can be as wild and as entertaining as anything that goes down in the singapore river pubs.  On some of our guys nights out, its got so wild that I have seen the day when my wife's had to come and pick me up in her car first thing at 6:30 before she goes to work and pack me off to bed to ensure that I am sober by time she gets home. That was well over a year ago though !!  I have calmed down a lot since then.

The Hedgehog works all over the world, has women in almost every country, owns properties everywhere, has his own yacht down in Australia and even a property which backs onto the waterways in Port Bouvard with his own private jetty, owns a Ferrari etc.  I have seen the pictures.

When he hits the town, the women just go to him like a magnet.

Boring ?   I dont think so.

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err Vulcan
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« Reply #25 on: 02 September 2010, 16:38:04 pm »
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Point 1 - no reliable data as they don't publish.

Point 3 - " China’s domestic demand provides less support to the global economy than popularly believed"  Isn't domestic demand somewhat fundamental to your stance?.  Next line, a rather large chunk of their imports are re-exported rather than consumed.

Point 4 - PPP sucks.

Point 5 - " It might be that the structural drivers are now being overwhelmed by cyclical ones and that China is experiencing a housing bubble no different from those of the U.K. and U.S. If so, the bears will soon be proven right as the bubble bursts and China’s decade-long boom will be brought to a screeching halt.
".  Doesn't sound too positive really, does it.

I'm merely culling your article here, I don't see how it supports your general views.  I have my own (and I think it is a bubble, stock market as well even though it has come off, yuan is undervalued but they can't afford to let it rise, this is short term, long term China is clearly going to do well) but that isn't really the point.  I guess the question is how exactly does that article support your stance?

The other insteresting point it raises is services.  A lot of the blinkered here think an emerging China is universally good for all Asia, especially Singapore, as it will pick up the higher end service stuff just because it is in the same continent.  This has always been bull, the idea China will just make stuff and get Singapore to do it's consulting, accounting or banking is a farce, they were always going to build their own service infrastructure as well.  This isn't to say China's emergence is bad for Singapore, it isn't, but the assumption it is great is wrong.  Anyway, different discussion.
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Vulcanl
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« Reply #26 on: 02 September 2010, 21:42:42 pm »
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err Vulcan,

I will begin by stating (again for the upteenth time) that Asia has indeed decoupled and the evidence is:

*Asian EM growth has continued to improve since the GFC of 2008 whilst Western GDP has (at best and I will be charitable here) remained stagnant
*Asian EM Currencies have strengthened considerably relative to the Western currencies
*Asian EM equities have outperformed their Western counterparts

The above three points are irrefutable - they are the smoking gun, point blank and end of that discussion

Is it possible that Asian EMs will encounter turbulance ahead?  No question about it...but if they do it means that The West is having an even WORSE time, because everything's relative (I have never stated otherwise).

The points you raise about the story are valid only if you assume that the Chinese model is/should function like those of the 'liberal democracies of the West.

This is very much an experiment and work in progress we are witnessing...but I will let my own experience in investing in EMs my entire working life dictate where I put my money.  I will leave my chips where they are and take my chances here, for I know exactly where the West is headed for the next few decades...and it ain't pretty!



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Decouplledd
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« Reply #27 on: 02 September 2010, 21:53:23 pm »
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You do realise that an awful lot of that article directly undermines your decoupling theory right?
There is no better example than the property market. Authorities in China, Hongkong, Malaysia, Singapore are do their best to stop people from buying properties. In the US, the govt has to PAY people to buy homes. Enuf said!
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Relief
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« Reply #28 on: 02 September 2010, 22:51:05 pm »
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Do you know anyone who is not clued up or in the know?

Personally when I meet friends we talk about things like football and girls, you know like normal people. Meeting you must be a blast.

Glad I'm not your friend.  Can't stand football, and people who talk about it are even worse.
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$Pripps
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« Reply #29 on: 02 September 2010, 22:59:58 pm »
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err Vulcan,

I will begin by stating (again for the upteenth time) that Asia has indeed decoupled and the evidence is:

*Asian EM growth has continued to improve since the GFC of 2008 whilst Western GDP has (at best and I will be charitable here) remained stagnant
*Asian EM Currencies have strengthened considerably relative to the Western currencies
*Asian EM equities have outperformed their Western counterparts

The above three points are irrefutable - they are the smoking gun, point blank and end of that discussion

Is it possible that Asian EMs will encounter turbulance ahead?  No question about it...but if they do it means that The West is having an even WORSE time, because everything's relative (I have never stated otherwise).

The points you raise about the story are valid only if you assume that the Chinese model is/should function like those of the 'liberal democracies of the West.

This is very much an experiment and work in progress we are witnessing...but I will let my own experience in investing in EMs my entire working life dictate where I put my money.  I will leave my chips where they are and take my chances here, for I know exactly where the West is headed for the next few decades...and it ain't pretty!





it seems the problem is that there seems to be a lot of different opinions of what exactly decoupling means, since you never exactly defined what it means its anyones guess what you mean. Instead maybe you should go all way and tell us what exactly defines a decoupled Asia (from your point of view). Should be easy for such a great mind as you.

PS. please don't reference any old thread claiming it be some kind of evidence. its not.
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