marrying a / to a muslim

[Bigots and village idiots]

Muslim marriages are a contract between the husband and the bride's father. It is essentially a gentlemen's agreement between them. The bride is often not even in the room during the ceremony. For this reason, Muslim marriages are not recognised in many countries. Your fiance's family are likely to have a major problem with a civil wedding on the other hand, so you really have to think about what is important to you. I strongly suggest that you think seriously about where you are going to live and how you want your future children (particularly daughters) to be raised. Converting to Islam will end up having a huge impact on these things no matter what people may tell you now about it being 'just for paper'.

In response to the above post, I can only repeat the lines in the post before it that "Don't listen to bigots and narrow-minded village idiots".

Virtually all the information given in the above post is wrong.  For example, a Muslim marriage is a contract between man and wife and not between man and father in law...

[Up to you]

Speaking as one who met a muslim, happily converted, and married, these are my thoughts.

Firstly there is a vast and varied amount of cultures under the banner of Islam. Malay Muslim culture is different to Indian Muslim culture, and Arab Muslim culture etc.

Within these cultures families vary enormously on where they stand on the religious vs secular continuim.

At the end it is up to you, your partner, and the respective families, and what is important to you. Some folks may be OK with going down the civil marriage route, other may not.

And yes there are some implications in Singapore Law. Singapore law has the Shariat for Muslims, and civil law for non muslims.

This does have implications for wills, organ donation, childrens custody etc.


Oh and in general one should never convert to a faith if insincere.

[also consider]

Wow, that's defensive. Let me guess: hit a raw nerve?   Have you actually been to a Muslim wedding? More to the point, have you been to a civil wedding so you actually know what is done at both? The Muslim bride has no part in the wedding ceremony which is conducted between her father and her new husband. She signs the marriage certificate afterwards, but does not say anything during the wedding itself. This is not acceptable in cultures where women are considered equal citizens with equal rights. The ceremony can be also conducted by any man knowledgeable in Islamic law, and he need not be an official representative or registered with any governing body. Again, not acceptable in most countries at all. Muslim marriages are therefore not recognised in most Western countries because they are essentially cultural cermonies. This information is pretty quickly verified with a simple google search.

[also consider]

To be clear, I was addressing "village idiot" not the PP above.

[Utter Nonsense]

Wow, that's defensive. Let me guess: hit a raw nerve?   Have you actually been to a Muslim wedding? More to the point, have you been to a civil wedding so you actually know what is done at both? The Muslim bride has no part in the wedding ceremony which is conducted between her father and her new husband. She signs the marriage certificate afterwards, but does not say anything during the wedding itself. This is not acceptable in cultures where women are considered equal citizens with equal rights. The ceremony can be also conducted by any man knowledgeable in Islamic law, and he need not be an official representative or registered with any governing body. Again, not acceptable in most countries at all. Muslim marriages are therefore not recognised in most Western countries because they are essentially cultural cermonies. This information is pretty quickly verified with a simple google search.

To answer some of your assertions:

Have I been to a Muslim wedding? Yes, my own

The Muslim bride has no part in the wedding ceremony which is conducted between her father and her new husband.

Really, that is news to me as my wife was standing by me the whole time and signed the same register as I did

This is not acceptable in cultures where women are considered equal citizens with equal rights

A highly subjective statement and one that anyone would drop within 1 second of meeting my wife or any of the female members of her family.

Interesting that in her country (a muslim one) she had to sign a form at the ministry before the wedding (without my presence) that quite cleary stated that she was entering into the marriage of her own free will.  And I had sign one that clearly stated that she would have legal custody of all future children in the event of divorce.

The ceremony can be also conducted by any man knowledgeable in Islamic law, and he need not be an official representative or registered with any governing body.

So I guess our celebrants registration with his countries Ministry that he had to show us before the wedding must have been fake then.

Muslim marriages are therefore not recognised in most Western countries because they are essentially cultural cermonies.

Well why did my home country (a western democracy) and Singapore both insist on certified copy of that same marriage certificate in order to recognise our marriage for official purposes

In short- every thing mentioned in the above post is clearly demostartable utter garbage.

[also consider]

Oh come on, where are the rest of the details?

Was your wife allowed to speak during her wedding? No, she stood there silently and signed her certificate only after you shook her father's hand. She might be allowed to keep your children if you divorce, but that is nothing to do with Islam and certainly not because of her rights to them.

Your officiant did not HAVE to register, but obviously chose to.

Why did you have to register your marriage in Singapore and your country? Ever wonder why a civil wedding would not require this?

[You don't get it]

"Muslim marriages are therefore not recognised in most Western countries because they are essentially cultural cermonies.

Well why did my home country (a western democracy) and Singapore both insist on certified copy of that same marriage certificate in order to recognise our marriage for official purposes"

Q: Then why do you have to register the marriage in a civil office to make it legal ?

A: Because the muslim marriage alone is not considered a legal marriage.

[Another Muslim]

Wow, that's defensive. Let me guess: hit a raw nerve?   Have you actually been to a Muslim wedding? More to the point, have you been to a civil wedding so you actually know what is done at both? The Muslim bride has no part in the wedding ceremony which is conducted between her father and her new husband. She signs the marriage certificate afterwards, but does not say anything during the wedding itself. This is not acceptable in cultures where women are considered equal citizens with equal rights. The ceremony can be also conducted by any man knowledgeable in Islamic law, and he need not be an official representative or registered with any governing body. Again, not acceptable in most countries at all. Muslim marriages are therefore not recognised in most Western countries because they are essentially cultural cermonies. This information is pretty quickly verified with a simple google search.

To answer some of your assertions:

Have I been to a Muslim wedding? Yes, my own

The Muslim bride has no part in the wedding ceremony which is conducted between her father and her new husband.

Really, that is news to me as my wife was standing by me the whole time and signed the same register as I did

This is not acceptable in cultures where women are considered equal citizens with equal rights

A highly subjective statement and one that anyone would drop within 1 second of meeting my wife or any of the female members of her family.

Interesting that in her country (a muslim one) she had to sign a form at the ministry before the wedding (without my presence) that quite cleary stated that she was entering into the marriage of her own free will.  And I had sign one that clearly stated that she would have legal custody of all future children in the event of divorce.

The ceremony can be also conducted by any man knowledgeable in Islamic law, and he need not be an official representative or registered with any governing body.

So I guess our celebrants registration with his countries Ministry that he had to show us before the wedding must have been fake then.

Muslim marriages are therefore not recognised in most Western countries because they are essentially cultural cermonies.

Well why did my home country (a western democracy) and Singapore both insist on certified copy of that same marriage certificate in order to recognise our marriage for official purposes

In short- every thing mentioned in the above post is clearly demostartable utter garbage.

As another Muslim I like to echo the same sentiments.  Of course, women are allowed to speak (not only allowed they are required to) and sign the register of marriage.  The "also consider" poster is clearly someone who wishes to spread lies and defamations against muslims.  Virtually everything that he (or she) says is factually inaccurate.

[culture]

Having attended Malay weddings in Singapore, I can vouch that the bride is not required to speak during the nikah. She might answer questions at the end before she signs (like "Are you, XXX?" and "Are you marrying YYY?" etc) but she does not say anything other than "Yes" and that's if she speaks at all. Her father does the talking. I've seen some brides sit in the same room (usually in a corner or off to one side, seated with the women in her family) but I've also seen it be conducted with the bride in another room and the certificate is then taken off for her to sign at the end. I really don't know why some posters are claiming this to be spreading lies (or even a defamation of Muslims!) when it is an accurate description of what happens at many Muslim weddings in Singapore.

I'm guessing the poster "utter nonsense" married in Indonesia, where foreigners are awarded no rights to property or children if their marriage breaks up. It is a different story if the father is Indonesian and the couple divorce, as anyone with an Indonesian maid can attest to, because then the mother has no rights to the children at all.

As has been pointed out by "you don't get it" nikah ceremonies sometimes (not always) need to be officiated or registered in a civil office to be considered legally binding. I know the UK does not recognise Muslim weddings so a couple who marries only with a nikah would not be considered legally married under current UK law.

A non-Muslim partner, especially a woman, needs to really look at the situation they are getting into and fully research the implications. It can all get extremely complicated. Heck, we should probably all do that before marriage anyway!

[muslim gal]

married within sharia law but ceremony conducted in English.   Father gives bride away an when the bride says yes before signing, she is actualy answering the question, do you take this man to be your husband on your own free will.

Go the the muslims converts association for details and clarifications.

[Rugi]

I came to this thread hoping to learn a thing or two about Muslim marriage, conversion and the like. Instead I came away more confused than ever.

 

[not criticizing]

Go the the muslims converts association for details and clarifications.

Is a converts association, in any religion, really the best place for someone to get unbiased information? I took a look at the muslim converts association website and it was very clear to me that their aim was to promote Islam. Not saying that's a bad thing, but someone who is trying to work out if that's the right path for them is not going to get balanced information there. Nor are they likely to learn about the legal ramifications of a conversion.

To the posters who said a conversion can be done just for paper, if it's really that simple why is it so rare for the Muslim partner to do it?

[Come again?!]

Having attended Malay weddings in Singapore, I can vouch that the bride is not required to speak during the nikah. She might answer questions at the end before she signs (like "Are you, XXX?" and "Are you marrying YYY?" etc) but she does not say anything other than "Yes" and that's if she speaks at all.

Pray tell how much does a Western bride say (or for that matter the groom) say during the marriage ceremony other than "I Do".

[um...]

Obviously you haven't been to many Western weddings.

There are vows which BOTH bride and groom are required to say, often times the vows are written by them so it is exactly what they want to say. The "I do" part is when they both acknowledge that they are free and willing to be lawfully married to each other.

[Strange]

Regardless of anyone's views on the validity of a Muslim, Christian or Civil marriage, surely the issue here is that the OP is willing to commit to a marriage with someone but cannot discuss something as fundamental as this with them.   Why on earth would anyone in that situation choose to seek guidance from an anonymous forum rather than with their future life partner and family?