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ExpatSingapore Message Board 28 May 2012, 3:36:31 am *
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Author Topic: How to Invest in Gold in Singapore  (Read 6848 times)
Vulcanl
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« Reply #30 on: 17 June 2011, 16:23:02 pm »
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not anon,

"...Actually V, people do know how long you have stayed here because you unfortunately let things slip over the years of posting on this board..."

This assumes that I have 'let slip' EVERYTHING about me here

"... - suffice to say you weren't here during the AFC & it's immediate aftermath..."

"...You maybe should go back through some of your older posts & see what you have said..."

Don't need to.  I am aware of everything I have posted on this board

"...you think you are safe..."

SAFER than the West, that's for sure!!  Wink
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ExpatSingapore Message Board
« Reply #30 on: 17 June 2011, 16:23:02 pm »
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Vulcanl
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« Reply #31 on: 18 June 2011, 5:55:36 am »
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anon,

And right on cue, we have reports of Western banks 'snapping up' warehouses all over the World and very effectively controlling the flow of various industrial metals.

If they can do this for these commodities, I wonder how many other types of entities banks are secretly buying that hold other people's Gold?


Wall Street Gets Eyed in Metal Squeeze
by Tatyana Shumsky and Andrea Hotter
Friday, June 17, 2011

Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and other owners of large metals warehouses are being scrutinized by the London Metal Exchange after being accused by users like Coca-Cola Co. of restricting the amount of metal they release to customers, inflating prices.

The board of the LME met on Thursday to discuss complaints from aluminum users and market traders, who say operators of warehouses, which also include J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. and Glencore International PLC, should be forced to allow the metal out more quickly to meet demand.

Aluminum prices have jumped 13% since the start of 2010 even though economic growth had been tapering off. Aluminum for delivery in three months on Thursday closed at $2,557 a metric ton on the LME, down 1.3% on the day.

Goldman, through its Metro International Trade Services unit, owns the biggest warehouse complex in the LME system, a series of 19 buildings in Detroit that house about a quarter of the aluminum stored in LME facilities.

Coca-Cola and other consumers say that Metro in particular is allowing the minimum amount of aluminum allowed by the LME—1,500 metric tons a day—to leave its facilities, and that Metro could remove much more, erasing supply bottlenecks and lowering premiums for physical delivery in the process.

Coca-Cola, which has complained to the LME, says it can take months to get the metal the company needs, even though warehouses are allowing aluminum to come in much more quickly. Warehouses, meantime, collect rent and other fees.

"The situation has been organized artificially to drive premiums up," said Dave Smith, Atlanta-based Coca-Cola's strategic procurement manager. "It takes two weeks to put aluminum in, and six months to get it out."

As a result of the complaints, the LME is considering changing its rules for warehouses, which would effectively double the minimum daily amount of metal that must be released.

"Metro has followed and will continue to follow the LME's possessive rules," said a Goldman Sachs spokesman. J.P. Morgan and Glencore declined to comment.

In recent years, major investment banks like Goldman and J.P. Morgan and commodities houses like Glencore have been snapping up warehouses around the world, turning the industry from a disperse grouping of independent operators into another arm of Wall Street. The LME has licensed about 600 warehouses around the world.

Glencore bought the metals-warehousing operations of Italian family-owned Pacorini Group and J.P. Morgan bought Henry Bath as part of its purchase of some of the commodities assets of RBS Sempra.

The transformation has raised questions about whether the investment banks, which also have big commodity-trading arms, are able to use their position as owners of warehouses to manipulate prices to their advantage.

The warehousing issue alarmed one trader enough to seek government intervention. Anthony Lipmann, managing director of metals trader Lipmann Walton & Co. Ltd., gave evidence to the U.K. House of Commons Select Committee in May 2011, raising concern about large banks and trading houses owning facilities that store other people's metal.

The banks have said they have walls between their various operations.

It also has raised questions about how they handle the materials, said Edward Meir, senior commodity analyst at MF Global. "Who's watching over situations involving whose metal is getting in and out first?" said Mr. Meir. "Who has priority?"

The U.K.'s Office of Fair Trading dismissed concerns that ownership of warehouses gives certain market players an unfair advantage, saying on Tuesday that there were no "obvious competition issues that would merit further investigation at this stage."

Goldman's Detroit warehouse holds about 1.15 million tons out of a total 4.62 million tons in LME-approved warehouses.

Since Goldman bought Metro early last year, the wait time for aluminum delivery in Detroit has increased to about seven months.

Metro charges its customers 42 cents a day for storing one metric ton of aluminum in Detroit, which is about the industry average. At 900,000 tons in the warehouses, Goldman is earning $378,000 a day on rental costs, or about $79 million in seven months.

"Warehouses are making a lot more money," said Jorge Vazquez, managing director of aluminum at Harbor Commodity Research. Goldman is "really the winner clearly, because if you want to take metal away from the location, you have to wait up to 10 months to get your metal out, and in the meantime you're paying rent."

Metro, meantime, is taking in metal. Metro also offers cash incentives to producers like Rio Tinto Alcan to store their metal in Metro's sheds for contracted periods, sometimes as much as $150 a ton, according to traders.

Once the metal is in the warehouse, the producers sell ownership to this metal on the open market. The new owner can't collect his metal for seven months because of the bottleneck. For that period, the new owner is stuck paying rent to Metro.

"The system is set up like a funnel, so you can dump large amounts of metal in the front end and only get a little out at the back end," said David Wilson, director of metals research at Société Générale SA. "It enables a situation where the rules of the warehousing system are taken advantage of."

Aside from warehouses, producers of the metal are benefiting, because they are able to charge more for their metal. Klaus Kleinfeld, chief executive of Alcoa Inc., said in an interview that supply-and-demand factors are leading prices higher.

"You can't blame the warehouses," Mr. Kleinfeld said.

U.S. aluminum sheet maker Novelis sent a letter to the LME in May "expressing concerns" about the warehousing situation, a company spokesman said.

The complaints led the LME to commission an independent study into the issue last July. That study recommended a sliding scale be adopted, rather than the fixed minimum of 1,500 tons a day. That would result in larger warehouse complexes being required to release more metal.

It effectively doubles the minimum amount required to be relinquished by Metro each day. The ruling would go into effect in April. The LME board on Thursday, however, failed to reach a consensus on the recommendations.

The LME warehousing system is designed to be the market of "last resort," meaning that industry can use it to sell excess stock in times of oversupply and as a source of material in times of extreme shortage.

But it has become the go-to market, in part because of the hefty cash incentives being offered by warehouses to store the metal.

The situation is made more aggravating for metal consumers because supply has far outweighed demand for most of the last decade, and there is more than 4.5 million metric tons of surplus metal stored in LME's warehouse system
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anon
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« Reply #32 on: 23 June 2011, 11:10:08 am »
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Stop complaining about western banks manipulating the prices of commodities - you and your goldbug friends are beneficiaries of that, ok?!
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Vulcanl
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« Reply #33 on: 23 June 2011, 20:13:10 pm »
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anon,

These lousy scumbag bastards cannot manipulate the price of Gold.  It is simply too liquid a market.  It is one MORE reason to buy Gold and safekeep it outside of the formal Western banking system.  These crooks are not to be trusted.

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anon
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« Reply #34 on: 24 June 2011, 10:23:47 am »
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Don't need to.  I am aware of everything I have posted on this board


U are tracking everything you have deleted on this board too, I gather
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Vulcanl
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« Reply #35 on: 24 June 2011, 14:15:04 pm »
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anon,

"...U are tracking everything you have deleted on this board too, I gather..."

 Huh This is weird...

I don't recall ever having deleted ANYTHING on this board...as far as I am aware I can only modify/delete threads that I have started.  The only instances of my making use of this 'power' is to lock the decoupling and front office threads
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Edge
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« Reply #36 on: 31 March 2012, 19:56:03 pm »
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Hi, is anyone familiar with whether there are any capital gains tax on physical gold for Singapore residents?  I'm assuming there aren't, but just want to clarify.
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GST
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« Reply #37 on: 02 April 2012, 8:45:11 am »
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No capital gains I am aware of..... but there is 7% Goods & Service Tax.
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no GST
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« Reply #38 on: 02 April 2012, 9:08:22 am »
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GST on gold has just been removed in the latest Budget announcement.
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3conomist
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« Reply #39 on: 02 April 2012, 10:03:46 am »
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gold is the financial system's enemy. don't buy through a bank; you will pay through the nose and probably not have legal title to anything, anyway.  there is a mint in the western part of australia where you can own (have legal title to) allocated or unallocated gold, which is held securely for you and (from what i remember) is the only such product that is guaranteed by a government.  'buy' gold via etfs (spdr etc) at your peril... if the financial markets implode, so will your 'drawing rights'...
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biscuit tin
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« Reply #40 on: 03 April 2012, 8:21:44 am »
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gold is the financial system's enemy. don't buy through a bank; you will pay through the nose and probably not have legal title to anything, anyway.  there is a mint in the western part of australia where you can own (have legal title to) allocated or unallocated gold, which is held securely for you and (from what i remember) is the only such product that is guaranteed by a government.  'buy' gold via etfs (spdr etc) at your peril... if the financial markets implode, so will your 'drawing rights'...

..... agree there is potential peril in ETFs - but surely the principle is the same as the mint in W.A.
You have bought some gold - in SPDR case its not derivative based, they hold gold for every dollar in the ETF, others maybe not, or WA mint they hold a coin or some such unit with legal title.

If it all goes tits up - unless that gold coin is in your biscuit tin at home - what makes you think you would have any better access to it than gold in an ETF? It's not like there is no precedent for governments banning private ownership of gold. What's to stop them - especially when you have all kindly piled it up in one spot that they can easily swoop on ?
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goldbug
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« Reply #41 on: 12 April 2012, 16:38:28 pm »
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fair comment but, in the absence of the real thing, my preferences would be as follows:

1. legal title on an actual piece or pieces of gold with a serial number on my certificate matching that of the piece in the vault
2. title of ownership to a pool of actual gold in a vault
3. a share in a company that owns gold which is probably physically held by a trustee via some convoluted company/trust structure.

you get what i mean...
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curious181
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« Reply #42 on: 05 May 2012, 11:30:21 am »
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So,

I read through this entire post, and all I got was one or two links and a whole bunch of negative criticism between a few members.
I don't want to argue if it's good or not to buy gold, and I don't feel the need to convince anyone what to do with their money. Everyone is free to make their own choices.

But back to topic: personally I don't "invest" in gold because investing is not the right word I believe. See gold more as a way to diversify your assets. And the best way is always physical gold. Some philosophers argue that something is only real when you can touch it. I feel the same about gold, I wanna be able to touch it. Again this is a personal preference and I respect anyone with a different point of view.

When I buy physical gold, and I wanna be able to sell it again at reasonable price, the easiest way is buy legal tender gold bullion coins or gold bullion bars with serial number / certificate. The obvious choices are Mustafa and UOB. I am not aware of any "GOOD" online Singapore website that actually offer trustworthy and reasonable priced services. (PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG AND PASTE SOME WEBSITES IF YOU HAVE ANY - I'D LOVE TO HAVE MORE OPTIONS).

I feel that in Singapore the gold coins (legal tender) are pretty rare and tightly controlled and way overpriced. Not mentioning the GST, Mustafa charges about 3% on top of the gold price, and UOB about 2%. In addition to that, Mustafa charges extra 2% if you pay by credit card or 3% if you pay with American Express. Cash is the best option. Plus cash can't be traced, the fewer people know about your gold the better. Mustafa has the Canadian Maple Leaf, the Australian Kangaroo. UOB also has the SIngapore lion in addition. I haven't found any Krugerrands or Vienna Philharmonic or American Eagle coins (PLEASE POST A LINK OR ADDRESS IF YOU KNOW WHO SELLS THESE IN SINGAPORE).

I hope to see a couple of replies that are not just about breaking each others arguments down (which is a waste of energy) but that actually help people who come to this post to get some ideas on how and where to buy/invest (which is the title of the topic).

Cheers, and have a good day
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