Family and salary consideration

[just passing by]

yes, local schools. especially at the elementary level, the Singapore system gives strong foundations, discipline and studying skills the international schools can only hope to match even midway.

check out how Singapore ranks in academic standards globally. there's been a huge emphasis and money spent on local education (rightly so) over the pasty 30 years, and it's paid off.

people often cite the lack of creativity in schools, but that can often be supplemenrted at home with creative parenting, or with well chosen outside classes.

ironically, it's amazing how resourceful locals can be sometimes in problem solving their way out of economic situations and prioritising, considering they're 'uncreative' and sterile.
and inversely ironic that the 'creative' bunch can be so tunnel-vision with the most basic, and so one-track.

i wouldn't go as far to suggest you also consider local housing, but at least try to stay away from Cold Storage, Tanglin Mall and all the expaty enclaves. give the local alternatives a try - wet markets, NTUC. it gives your stay a more 'colorful' flavoring as well.

lastly, stay grounded. don't try to match up to the Jones' if they're on a $1 million package, with that same lifestyle and attitude.

[Question]

Hello everyone,
I've been browsing the forum for info on "minimum salary" for a family of 4, trying to asses if the current expat package is enough...

The household salary would be $120K, with the following main expenses:
- rent @$4K per month for a 3 bedrooms in district 19 ($48K per year)
- education for the 2 kids ($34K per year)
- tax $8K per year
Total main expenses: $90K versus $120K salary

So we would have $30K left for food, utilites and others...
Potential upsides: annual bonus, spouse job.
Savings: we have no debt and good amount in savings accounts just in case...

What do you think? Any comments on the rent on district 19? on the tax amount?

Thank you in advance,
John.

Heres an idea : Don't pay for the overpriced expat things. These things are deliberately overpriced for expats.

Housing : Look for a normal apartment for rent. For a family of 4, you can get a 5 room apartment for far less than $2k a month.

Schooling : Don't enrol your kids in an expensive "rich kids" private school.

Food : $3.50 at most hawker centers get you a full meal.

How to save :

-Don't frequently fly for weekend holidays. These cost a lot of money. Imagine if you were to fly from the UK every weekend to scotland for a holiday. Occasional trips to malaysia for shopping or food are fine.

-Shop around for the lowest prices. Daiso is awesome for cheap and good items. If things are too expensive locally, get them from overseas.

-Don't put most of your money into the local banks with their pathetic interest rates, invest in NZ/AU fixed deposits that give you 10% or higher per annum

-Don't get an expensive brand new car. A used, basic car in good condition will cost far less.

There are plenty of people living in Singapore on annual salaries of less than $36k...with $120k, there is really NO reason you can't live a good lifestyle.

[JohnSIN]

Thank you everyone for your very constructive detailled answers. Truly appreciated it.

Yes I do agree on getting "local" regarding food and housing, will apply this approach. For education, it is tempting as you are right the local school system seems great but in the same time, pre/primary school is where you start to learn language and as my wife is French, we would like to have them learn French. The French school offers us that for a "correct price" (~$35k per year starting next year, including the little who will turn 2)
Coming back to the local school, is the learning level of English all right? Do they learn other language in primary school, I guess mandarin and maybe one more? (At the French school, beside French they learn English and get an initiation to Mandaring). I was reading posts about the debate for expats between international schools and local schools, one argument against local school seems important to me: the good local school are full (rightfuly so by citizens and permanent residents). Maybe this post was wrong?

So we have 2 kids, one is 4 year old and one is 1 yr old.

Following your budget advices:
> Increase the food monthly budget to $2000, sounds better for a family of 4 with 2 young kids?
> Increase the transportation monthly budget to $400 (mostly public transportation)

For the local housing, you mean HDB? We are not citizen or permanent resident. Maybe you are refering to another kind of apartment in between HDB and overpriced condos?
We were targeting D19 and D20

Others great advices to keep:
> invest in NZ/AU fixed deposits that give you 10% or higher per annum
> Daiso is awesome for cheap and good items
> Occasional trips to malaysia for shopping or food are fine, sounds like fun (I guess with your own car

The latest package info is 140K or $10750 per month.

Again thank you so much

[HDB Rental]

Is possible when it has been approved (or even sometimes not) to do so.

In D19 for example you could get 4 bedroom HDB for around 3000 a month

[JohnSIN]

What do you mean by getting "approved"? I guess the competition is high for 3 bedrooms in D19 or D20 (actually I have no idea...)

On the HDB official website, it says "There must be one other Singapore citizen or Singapore Permanent Resident in his basic family nucleus."
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10323p.nsf/w/RentDirectHDBEligibility?OpenDocument

Did I miss something?

[Oh Man]

Going local sounds like an adventure, doesn't it?  A great big romantic DISASTER of an adventure!

Please please please don't do it.  It will be a miserable experience for you, your children and your wife.  You are NOT local - you are expats and that's how you will be seen and treated.   

Singaporeans have a very distinct culture that would drive most of us mad if we had to live it 24/7 - we just don't have the same values or living expectations at all!

If you can't do this as an expat - and I personally would NOT do it on the salary offered - then stay where you are!

[Travis R]

Am about to leave Singapore.  Was earning 14k a month.  Yes there are plenty of people who will tell you that this is enough to live on and that it can be done.  Are they right?  Yes. Maybe. No.  Well for us it is no.  We found that it became increasingly tough to get by on this amount.  We did not have extravagant taste.
  
Things we didn't do:

1. Own a car
2. Have a maid
3. Live in a flash condo in a flash area
4. Spend tonnes of money on private school for our kid

Even NOT doing all these things life in Singapore was pretty average in terms of our standard of living.

We are leaving and we are looking forward to getting home.  Singapore is hard work unless you earn upwards of 250k. Sure you can do it for alot less but it ain't much fun.

[Travis R]

Going local sounds like an adventure, doesn't it?  A great big romantic DISASTER of an adventure!

Please please please don't do it.  It will be a miserable experience for you, your children and your wife.  You are NOT local - you are expats and that's how you will be seen and treated.   

Singaporeans have a very distinct culture that would drive most of us mad if we had to live it 24/7 - we just don't have the same values or living expectations at all!

If you can't do this as an expat - and I personally would NOT do it on the salary offered - then stay where you are!

Some of the best advice I have seen on this board for a long time, well said.

[JohnSIN]

Thank you Travis for your honest reply. So with $14K per month and with no school fees, you were not able to enjoy Singapore, that's frightening to me... If you have a chance, please give us you main monthly costs or annual costs like travel?

Regarding the post of "oh man", I see nothing wrong with going local, for sure not going 100% (not possible by definition). A few personal questions for you: are you an expat with a family? what is your annual household income? Do you live in an overprices condo with pool? Do you have a maid? Just trying to understand your mindset on this. Going to Singapore does mean to find the same values/culture as the ones from home, that's why it is called "expatriation" and that's why going local, again not 100%, is relevant from a culture, life experience stand point.
To me, "expat" does not mean living in luxurious conditions and not enjoying the real life of the country I live in, just my take.

Anyway, I truly appreciate all the post, even those contrary to the "mainstream" (in my case trying to move to Singapore

[HDB Rental Approval]

What do you mean by getting "approved"? I guess the competition is high for 3 bedrooms in D19 or D20 (actually I have no idea...)

On the HDB official website, it says "There must be one other Singapore citizen or Singapore Permanent Resident in his basic family nucleus."


Did I miss something?

To rent out a HDB flat the owner has to qualify for this through ownership of the flat for a certain amount of time (3 or 5 years) depending if it was subsidised or not - they then apply to the HDB for approval and when you rent you should see a copy of this letter from your LL

[Single Guy]

On 12k a month and I have a very good life. Decent overseas holidays a few times a year in the region plus a "Biggie" further afield. Decent condo as well.

Eat what I like - mixture of local and western.

If I go to the pub on a weekend it is a 200-300 SGD night out

As my pal says though, "Ankle biters are expensive".

[Agent007]

$140K (+bonus) is more than sufficient so do not listen to all the negative people who say any different.

You will probably be in the top 20% wage bracket for Singapore.

Plenty condos available at 3000 to 3500 which will meet your requirements. Look at URA website to check actual transacted prices for the condos you shortlist.

To spend 2000 per month on groceries you have to be a lunatic or a fat ba8tard and there are a lot of those type of expats around. 1000 to 1250 will be enough if you use the better supermarkets. Avoid Carrotfour which sells second hand vegetables and is french anyway.

What is your job?

[JohnSIN]

To Agent007, when you said a $2000 monthly budget for food is way off, we are talking about a family of 4, are on the same page? Just checking
To "Single guy", yes I understand you have a good like with $12k per month, great for you, this thread is about assessing the viability of a $140K budget for 4.

Thank you for the great info on HDB and the "approved rental" tip, found some good rental proposal from propertyguru website.

Also made some research of the type of HDB, I guess we need a "5I" (that stands for 5 room improved).
http://singaporewatch.org/?p=582

[Invisible Expat]

JohnSin,

Thank you for your sincere inquiries. Since you are from DC, I hope you realize that the cost of living in Singapore has become much higher than the highest US city (New York). Therefore, your salary will not go nearly as far here as it would in DC.

Except for the very newest HDB apartments (which you cannot legally rent nor buy), the ones you can rent are very similar to the concrete public housing projects common in US big cities (except for the absence of drug dealing and drive-by shootings). That and the cost of schooling for your children will make the quality of life pretty challenging. Another thing, even the most hardened Singaporean has been upset with the overcrowding on public transport. With the daily heat and humidity, an hour commute each way will wear you down pretty fast.

We moved here with two little ones too. Like you, we came without a rich expat package. We survived without a car for 6 months and broke down and bought one (and we're New Yorkers who always took the subway!). Our car cost about as much as the median US house but it was worth it. We tried going local but that ended pretty quick. As such, we have little savings despite doing careful planning like you (thank God we have ample savings from NYC).

BTW, if you are a US citizen or green card holder, you must also pay US income taxes.

[Question]

For the local housing, you mean HDB? We are not citizen or permanent resident. Maybe you are refering to another kind of apartment in between HDB and overpriced condos? Wink

I do not mean to buy a HDB flat but to rent an apartment. It will be much cheaper than a condo or any kind of expensive private housing. You should be able to do it (maybe not direct from HDB...)

Am about to leave Singapore.  Was earning 14k a month.  Yes there are plenty of people who will tell you that this is enough to live on and that it can be done.  Are they right?  Yes. Maybe. No.  Well for us it is no.  We found that it became increasingly tough to get by on this amount.  We did not have extravagant taste.
  
Things we didn't do:

1. Own a car
2. Have a maid
3. Live in a flash condo in a flash area
4. Spend tonnes of money on private school for our kid

Even NOT doing all these things life in Singapore was pretty average in terms of our standard of living.

We are leaving and we are looking forward to getting home.  Singapore is hard work unless you earn upwards of 250k. Sure you can do it for alot less but it ain't much fun.

There are millions of people living in Singapore on or less than $3000 a month. If you earn $14k a month and you can't live comfortably, you have problems handling your finances. I am sorry but there is no other explanation.

Imagine if an expat in your home country told you that he can't live comfortably at $14k a month....

If I go to the pub on a weekend it is a 200-300 SGD night out

I assume you go to expensive places? A pint of erdinger, one of the more expensive beers available locally, costs around $10 at most pubs. If you go during happy hour timings to places like brewerkz, the prices are VERY low.

To all the people saying "DONT GO LOCAL!!!"...you have no idea how you sound. How would you feel if foreigners came to your country and kept telling you they don't want to go local?