Does my country need expats in this quantity?

[Interested Local]

Let me state that this is not an attempt to start spamming or rubbishing. I am 35 years old and bordering on middle management in a local bank. I am attempting this as a discussion because my friends and I were discussing this over lunch one day. The 4 of us were doing well, 3 of us studied overseas and one locally in universities. We did well in our studies, exposed ourselves to western ways of thinking and came back to Singapore. We started doing well, taking a lot of crap from local and expat managers - but I have no regrets because I have come out the better for it, begrudgingly I admit that it was enriching on the whole.

But something changed dramatically a few years ago when my government whom I support all in all, said we need more foreign talent. And suddenly my whole world as a local has changed. All 4 of us have suddenly found that our chances of promotion have decreased incredibly - the posts above us have all gone to expats - despite these are Singaporean companies. The management has claimed that you have "international perspective" - but I can get international perspective too if I was promoted and sent for overseas postings the same as you are. But that is not going to happen now.

And then there is insult to injury. I get paid a reasonable amount of money. But when an expat comes in - suddenly - he gets paid LOTS more but his contribution is not that more significant than mine. Or if it is, I have to start questioning whether I and my friends could have had it, if we were given the chance. I have spent 35 years born and bred and doing my army service in this country. Tomorrow if there was a war, I would stay and fight, this is all I have for my family for me. And suddenly, I am told we need foreign talent and I have become a stranger in my own country.

Let me say this, at least treat us nicely. But even that does not happen. Come Friday, all the expats go to one pub, all the locals go to another. I made the mistake of asking an expat woman out for a date - she said no. And I paid for that later. But before anyone else shuts me up for being a sore loser, it doesn't matter, I am now enjoying the company of a local girl, having learnt my lesson. But what are you here for? I read of you complaining about your salaries and your lifestyle when I wish I could have one tenth of it - and you did not work hard to build this country like I and my citizens did. We slogged away in the formative years to build Singapore Inc, What is your stake in my country that now I have lost chances to climb ahead in my organisation and you get in just 'cos you have "international experience". What is "international experience and foreign talent" that our ideas and intellect could not come up with - we got this far without the influx.

No, I welcome you. What I do not understand and hope that some expat will explain to me is what future is there for me now as a local if I can't go further because there are now Ang Mohs and their exclusive club on top of me? What future is there for us local men when you come in and take all the local women away - whatever their perceptions of my fellow country women may be of me.

And when you next think of promoting someone - will you send away for your expats in England, Australia or US or will you think of Tan, Ahmad or Muthu to develop from down the career ladder upward? There is an election coming soon. Will the huge influx of foreign talent be an issue or will it be economic times or the price of COEs. All I know is that I fear retrenchment in the country I was born in - while we still bring in foreign talent.

I envy you - not resent you. I welcome you - but have come to fear you. I can't even apply for jobs in the country you have come in though I speak and think analytically as good as any ang moh man. There is no way your government would allow me. Your opinions please. I would be interested.

[my 2 cents]

I am a "foreign talent" on a local package.  I feel you have a valid point here although I would assume that there will be a lot of negative replies.  However, as long as there are ang moh's money pouring in here, there will be ang moh foreign talents.  Ang moh's will never trust Singaporeans to manage their millions without having some of them placed in these companies.  It is kinda like whores in a fish tank.  You wouldn't bother to spend your money if you don't see what you like.

I don't think it is because Singaporeans can not do the job but because Singaporeans don't look like ang moh's.  They come up with all the excuses like creativity, exposures and all kinds of BS.  The only creativity I have witnessed from foreign talents here is how to score with underage teenagers with padded bras. It also seems like they devote most of their working day to surf the net and post messages on *** like this one.  I am off the hook because today is Saturday, hee hee.  

But the bottom line is that these so called "foreign talents" are just window-dressing to attract ang moh money.  They wouldn't be here if they were any good in their own country.  Only the second and third-tier employees become expat foreign talents regardless of how much they are getting paid.  We were all once very expendible. I have come to realize that I am one of them, unfortunately.

[Regional superpower?]

I think there some truth in what you say. I am an Ang Moh heading a department in a foreign bank. All my staff in Singapore (it is a regional role) are Singaporean. I know the management would never have considered a Singaporean for the job although they may do when my time comes to leave in a year's time.

If I do my job right then there really should be a knowledge transfer from me to the people working for me, not just here but also in some other parts of the region. Certainly I am far better paid than they are but I'm not actually that much better off than I was in Sydney. I suspect after 2 years we will have saved a reasonably amount of money but not the fortunes that are sometimes bandied about on this board.

I think my staff would probably agree that I am better at the job than any of them could be - for now. That is the whole point of knowledge transfer. I've done what I do for 15 years in four different countries. None of them has ever worked outside Singapore although one was educated in Oz and another in the UK.

From my (limited) experience it seems to me that Singaporeans are generally relativley unwilling to travel - they may get degrees abroad but they cant wait to get back home. If they arent prepared to broaden their horizons early in their careers (its only gets harder to move as you get older and have families etc) then you can blame companies for bringing in "foreign talent" if they want to be true regional superpowers. I dont see the problem with this provided it really is a knowledge transfer - not simply fat and lazy Ang Moh's living off the sweat of the local's brows.

[SoSo]

Interested Local

I hear you, and somewhat sympathise. By the way - not all expats are well paid or here to take local's jobs. I am one of three foreigners running a company that employs locals. I do not have an expatriate package.

I was also quite intrigued with your posting, for while I understand the motive, you are addressing it not to those who made the decisions to increase "foriegn talent" but to those that have been brought here because of that decision.

Yes, it is hard, but I remember this same argument in the UK some 30 - 40 years ago when American companies went to the UK and opened up offices. The complaint then by the Brits was that they never got the top jobs. This too in a country that has thousands of years of existence and even then a mature financial market with years of experience. To be frank, Singapore is still a young country without a mature financial market.

My advice to you is to try and beat the system. You will not do so by staying where you are. Move to other companies, get the experience you need so that when this current "fashion" of having foreign management falls away, you will be the one with the most experience. If you can, go get a job overseas. It will double that experience and will no doubt count double when the move is to reduce expats and replace them with experienced locals.

Do not count on your education, overseas or whatever. While it looks good on a CV, it counts for little. I have seen overseas educated locals who are, basically, stupid. I have seen foreign MBA's who are, basically, stupid. I have also seen both locals and foreigners who have few academic qualifications who are irreplaceable because they busy themselves making making sure they are useful and contribute.

I expect I sound harsh - but that's the way life is. I tell my own daughters the very same story. I don't know of anyone who has become successful without their share of bad luck. Good luck helps, but working hard at laying the foundations so that when luck comes along you can take full advantage of it beats all else. Success doesn't come easy...

Good luck.

[wrong]

The defeated attitude of many Singaporean's like the guy who started this post is half the problem.

You have every opportunity to be on a huge expat salary. In China they are screaming out for well educated, experienced Chinese speakering business people. You can make a fortune and any Singaporean would likely have an edge over an Ang Mo in China and many other markets such as Taiwan, HK even Malaysia. Even in the US many companies are looking for Chinese people to spearhead their business growth into China.

Give it a few years and I guarentee there will be a huge need for Singaporeans as expats on major packages throughout the world. In this decade you are the luckest people alive - Western educated with Chinese roots.

[worker]

I have to disagree with 'my 2 cents worth' when he/she says singaporeans don't like to travel, I can't believe that is true. I'm an expat in Singapore and have gotten to know many Singaporeans who would just love to work overseas but don't get the opportunity.

It's hard enough getting a job if you are an average American in the US or a Brit in the UK and there are no issues with work permits and rights to work in that country. It's doubly hard to get a job if you are a foreigner (Singaporean or otherwise) as most companies have to prove they really need to hire you and not one of the locals.
Not many countries open their arms so widely to hiring foreigners as Singapore and I feel those of us here earning above average (local) wages for our jobs and living a relatively privilged lifestyle (by this I mean having maids, nice work packages, being able to jet off to Thailand for weekends away etc) should be grateful for the opportunity given to us.  I am sure many many Singaporeans would jump at the chance of working overseas if they could.

[MD]

Interested Local,

I too agree and sympathise with much of your post.  I believe two of the primary reasons for a large number of expatriates working in the country are the following.

The Singaporean economy has largely been built by creating a relatively safe and free (economically, financially and politically) environment for companies to base themselves here.  Given the lack of natural resources on the island (obviously excluding human), this has really been the only option.  Today I believe that somewhere in the region of 48% of the country's GDP is from foreign owned companies.  Given this fact, it is only natural for these companies to hire and transfer people from their base country.  Not to have a token Ang Moh face at the head of the company, but because they like to have people who have been with the company for a reasonable period of time and who have proven themselves in positions of responsibility – often in different countries.  
This ties in with my second reason, which is that many of the foreign companies here operate their Singaporean office as a regional base for Asia, and/or Asia/Pacific.  So a company is more likely to prefer someone who has proven themselves in a number of different environments rather than one who has spent the vast majority of their working life in Singapore. I am a foreigner working for an international company & was given the opportunity to come to Singapore because of prior experience in both the company & the role. The company has large operations in much of Asia & Australia and very little in Singapore, despite the fact that the regional office for AsiaPac is here.  
That being said, why foreign talent would be brought into senior positions in a local bank is quite beyond me.  I see no valid reason for it whatsoever.  
Again, I'm inclined to agree with you that the attitudes of some (not all) of the expats can be arrogant and unpleasant.  Why one would come to Singapore and not actually mix with people of other cultures baffles me.  And yet there are some who only have lunch in a western outlet, only mix with their own countrymen, and then join a club to mix further with only their own countrymen.  
And the ones who then have the gall to complain about some trivial thing should really have their passport revoked and be sent packing.  

I largely disagree with 'my two cents'.  Much of the foreign talent that I've encountered in Singapore is highly talented and hard working.  You might argue that there is no great need for them here, but to infer that the Singaporeans can't compete with Ang Mohs who are not even good enough for their home country is a bit insulting to both foreigner & Singaporean alike.  And if escapades with padded bras is the only creativity that you have witnessed here, perhaps you should look a bit harder....

[Aceman]

Personally, I welcome them, how else can I rent my apartments out!!

[Angmo]

Singapore is (allegedly) a free, democratic country. If you don't like what your government is doing, then you have the option to vote them out at the next election. I know the PAP has been in power for over 30 years, but everyone thought that Maggie Thatcher was invincible and look what happened to her and her ilk....

[Expat Consultant]

As a mangagement consultant I'd like to point out a few things.

1.  The Expat packeges offered by most International Companies today in Singapore are almost identical (Cash Value) when compared to a local salary.

2.  Most of the International companies that I have consulted for, employ foreigners because of there experience & value add to a relatively new organisation in Singapore.

3.  Many of the International Companies are now "de-emphasising expatriate positions", when the individuals contract expires they are often offered a local contract in place of their previous Expatriate one.

4.  Many of the foreigners that I know personally in Singapore came to Singapore on their own & were not brought here by a Company

5.  Lastly, if all the foreigners (Malaysians, Europeans, indonesians, filipinos...) were to leave Singapore tomorrow, for whatever reason, could Singapore survive?  Are there enough Singaporeans with the necessary skills?

Who would be the maid?
Who would mend the roads?
Who would do all the labouring?

[Captain Marvel]

One thing that has often surprised me from postings on this Board is the number of expats coming here on what I would regard as very low salaries (things like $2-4k pm). If they're prepared to work for that little then they must either be (a) very junior or (b) no good. If I was a local, personally I wouldn't have a problem with expats working as CEOs or CFOs on huge packages. Its when they start working as teachers, middle managers and so on on these low-medium salaries that I'd start to get worried about my career prospects.

[Arrogant Captain Marvel]

How arrogant can you be?  In cities like London, sure S$2-4000 is not much to live on, but in many less urban parts of the Western World 'good' people work for that much very happily.  You cannot live in Birmingham and expect to be paid $100,000pa no matter how 'good' you are, so to come here for $4000pm does not mean you are 'no good'.  Some people get paid too much for what they do, some people are not paid enough.

[marvellous]

Captain,

Have you ever thought for a moment that not everyone shares your dream of highly paid corporate life?

The quality of an individual cannot be measured by salary. It sounds like you earn lots of cash and yet you seem incredibly narrow-minded. Perhaps you're the one who is "no good".

Apologies to the original poster for veering off topic.

[mbk]

 

quote:Originally posted by Captain Marvel:
One thing that has often surprised me from postings on this Board is the number of expats coming here on what I would regard as very low salaries (things like $2-4k pm). If they're prepared to work for that little then they must either be (a) very junior or (b) no good.

And one thing that surprises me on this board is the lack of poorly thought out generalisations.

However, you've made up for it with that one!

Ever consider that a good many people actually want to work abroad, and are willing to accept lowish packages to do so, because "Seeing the world" is more important that money.  Travel broadens the mind, at least of real people if not cartoon heroes.

And what is wrong with being junior, and/or not very good?  

quote:
If I was a local, personally I wouldn't have a problem with expats working as CEOs or CFOs on huge packages. Its when they start working as teachers, middle managers and so on on these low-medium salaries that I'd start to get worried about my career prospects.

If I were a local, I'd agree with that.

[Superman]

Captain Marvel,

So now you want to deprive the people of Singapore a new outlook on learning.

If you were to learn another language how well do you think you could speak it if you were not taught by a native speaker?
You only need walk down any street to see how people speak English to know there is a need for native speakers to teach them.

As to 2-4000 as a low to medium salary then you must be on a packet.
If I were you Id be worried about what your workers thought about you but then again you would not give a stuff anyway would you?

Thank god I am one of the no-good ( who by the way am very good at what I do)and do not earn your packet as if I had to have an attitude like that then you can shove it.