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ExpatSingapore Message Board 28 May 2012, 9:44:24 am *
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Author Topic: Real history or myth  (Read 1086 times)
Patriot
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« on: 26 November 2000, 12:18:00 pm »
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There have been several postings, under the general headings of trying to be funny that have deteriorated into spats that would look good on WWW. These have started out as humerous observations of American elections, Bus etiquette etc and seem to always boil down to whether England would have German or Japeneseas its national language and how gracious the American people were to help out during the 2ndWW, even though they only started at half time.

My version of history is the Americans entered WW2 after Pearl Harbour (sorry about the spelling).

The reason why they were so keen to help poor old blighty was becasue if they didnt make a stand in the UK they would have had a whole new breed of visitors to Ellis Island, namely AH and his buddies. Please don't think you were ONLY doing us a favour (opps spelling again)you were helping yourselves.
Now, if the BM lets this stay on the board, I would like to hear others views on this.

Please dont let humerous observations on how people act on the bus,MRT or the behavoir of maids or how elections are conducted degenerate into mud slinging jingoism. We all come together as expats hense the name of this website. If people get offended at what is said obout their behavior perhaps the BM should extend the number of chat lines to more than the English, German and French that are presently available. Suggestions on what these could be would be interesting. nuff said.

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ExpatSingapore Message Board
« on: 26 November 2000, 12:18:00 pm »
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nikki m
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« Reply #1 on: 26 November 2000, 13:25:00 pm »
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Sad but true patriot, we were in a very isolationist phase at that time in history and couldn't fathom that the stories of ethnic cleansing were true and it was Pearl Harbor that finally got us in the fray. One thing(out of many) that I love about the lovely lion city is that it is truely a united nations.
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nikki
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« Reply #2 on: 26 November 2000, 13:55:00 pm »
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Patriot

This "mud-slinging" as you term it - is nothing but a bunch of people working in a foreign country identifying with each other and having a laugh at each other. There is nothing sinister or profound about it - it's a shame you have described the unofficial camaraderie in this vein (or aorta).

Take the good with bad - add 'em up and what'dya have?


The Facts of Life.
(Now that was a corny US series surely - but anyone who has seen "Skippy - The Bush Kangaroo" would agree that that was on par if not worse).

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Daniel A
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« Reply #3 on: 26 November 2000, 16:25:00 pm »
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What's up skip? There are smugglers in the valley catching endangered drop bears? I don't believe you! What? You took a photo... let me see... by jingo you're right... let's get em!

Now... back to that history thingy...

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GenerationX
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« Reply #4 on: 27 November 2000, 2:27:00 am »
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Please do not insult Facts of Life.
Some of us grew up as good girls, living by the wise advice of Mrs Garrett.
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KT
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« Reply #5 on: 27 November 2000, 6:53:00 am »
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Skippy?  That was pure dramatic genius compared to The Young Doctors ...!
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Rob
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« Reply #6 on: 27 November 2000, 9:33:00 am »
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I still have nightmares about "Prisoner cell block H" !!
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interloper
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« Reply #7 on: 27 November 2000, 10:18:00 am »
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GenX - Mrs Garrett was really a guy in drag with a hair problem. BTW, isn't GenX a slogan for Pepsi?

Rob - for some reason Prisoner keeps the thumbs up by others! (a real life, gritty drama 'bout hard-nosed females.......)

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Rob
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« Reply #8 on: 27 November 2000, 13:55:00 pm »
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Oh! They were women....now everything becomes clear!
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T2K
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« Reply #9 on: 27 November 2000, 19:59:00 pm »
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If anyone cares, I'll address the original subject of this posting.  Though I too grew up with "The Facts of Life" and thought Blair was really hot.  No you poms, not Tony.

America in the late 30's was in a period of isolationism whose magnitude is not easily comprehended by Europeans.  Though other nations experienced some of these factors, none experienced them all:  

-The high level of security which America's vast oceanic borders provided when combined with a modern and strong navy

-Strong antiwar sentiment resulting from the European experience in the Great War as well as the lack of proximity of possible enemies

-Governmental system where public opinion mattered very strongly in shaping policy decisions

-Very domestic focused agenda due to the great depression

As a result, it is not accurate to say that the US entering the war in Europe at the end of 1941 was a foregone conclusion (or that we were "very keen to help Blighty").  In fact, Roosevelt promised that he would not send American boys to any foreign wars in the 1940 Presidential elections.  At that point, public opinion was decisively against direct American involvement in <what was seen as> the latest European war.

The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on Dec. 07, 1941 obviously made war between Japan and the US inevitable.  It did not make war between Germany and the US an immediate absolute.

Throughout that year (1941), American vessels had been delivering munitions and supplies to the UK.  President Roosevelt had to justify this to sceptical elements in the public and in his own administration by using an analogy of a neighbor lending a garden hose to another whose house was on fire.  

As in the period leading up to American involvement in WWI, this cargo traffic in the North Atlantic naturally led to incidents with German submarines attempting to blockade the British Isles.  American lives were lost, but Roosevelt (though personally believing that the US should get involved sooner rather than later) was still not able to bring America more directly into the war due to strong sentiments against such an act.

What changed things, as in several other key points in WW2, was Hitler's poor judgement and overconfidence.  Though the terms of the Axis agreement between Italy, Japan and Germany did not require it, Germany declared war on the US immediately after Pearl Harbor.  This would only be called for per their agreement if Japan had been attacked by a foreign power, which was obviously not the case.

Of course, we had to respond to a declaration of war upon us, and that's why America got involved when we did.  Had it not been for AH's miscalculation, American involvement may have come much later (though it would have happened eventually as Germany got more aggressively desperate).  At any rate, Hitler's greatest miscalculation, the invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941, would have effectively precluded a German invasion of the UK until the end of that massive conflict.

So, the point is that Britain was saved from invasion in 1941 because 'the Fuehrer' had other interests in the East, not because the Battle of Britain was decisive.  Without the US being involved, there would have been no hope of Britain regaining the continent (note disastrous Dieppe landings in 1942), unless the Russians were on the other side waiting to greet the Tommies.

Having said all that, all we ask is a little general recognition and thanks.  I'm amazed at the seemingly prevalent opinion in the UK that American involvement in WW2 was unnecessary or insignificant.

For those still with me - thanks for listening.  This was started as a 2 paragraph posting and now...

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Paul N
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« Reply #10 on: 27 November 2000, 20:18:00 pm »
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T2K,

Well put.  I recall that same series of events being present in all my history books, including the ones I had on my shelf the night the British Tornado back seaters decided to rip me a new one during a drinking session while in flight school.  Needless to say, a lesson in foreign policy is best not delivered as the main course behind a pint of ale.

Sometimes later generations open their mouths and spill forth with the over-blown stories their fathers spewed.  The primary difference being, the fathers didn't bother to fill in all of the details.  Only the ones that made them look the hero in their child's eyes.  A visit to the beaches of France will set the record straight.  Men from all over the free world died on those shores.  No one was any better than the other.  Speaking from very personal experience...when they're dead, their family doesn't give a damn if they were a Brit in the Canadian Regiment, or a Yank flying Hurricanes for the RAF.  All they care is that their family's blood was spilled in defense of all they feel is right in the world.

Hug a vet!

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Tammy
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« Reply #11 on: 28 November 2000, 0:19:00 am »
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check that: All they care was that their family's blood was spilled. Period.
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Paul N
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« Reply #12 on: 28 November 2000, 6:48:00 am »
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Touche'
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