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Author Topic: Science Disproves Evolution  (Read 406610 times)
Pahu
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« Reply #2130 on: 06 July 2017, 4:27:13 AM »

Quote
uote
   
Was There Room?   

You are proposing various arguments which have neither biblical authority nor scientific proof to try to show that a parable was a true story.


No. 

Why do you accept the garden of Eden as an allegory, but not Noah?

I gave you the reasons for the Garden of Eden allegory. Those reasons do not apply for the Flood. In fact, the evidence is all around us:


Worldwide Flood, Worldwide Evidence


When the Bible refers to a worldwide Flood in Genesis 7–8, that’s exactly what it means. Not local, not metaphorical, not some crazy dream—the waters covered the whole earth. Don’t just take our word for it, though. Take a look at the evidence right beneath your feet.

Evidence 1: Fossils of sea creatures high above sea level due to the ocean waters having flooded over the continents

We find fossils of sea creatures in rock layers that cover all the continents. For example, most of the rock layers in the walls of Grand Canyon (more than a mile above sea level) contain marine fossils. Fossilized shellfish are even found in the Himalayas.
Focus in: High & Dry Sea Creatures

Evidence 2: Rapid burial of plants and animals

We find extensive fossil “graveyards” and exquisitely preserved fossils. For example, billions of nautiloid fossils are found in a layer within the Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon. This layer was deposited catastrophically by a massive flow of sediment (mostly lime sand). The chalk and coal beds of Europe and the United States, and the fish, ichthyosaurs, insects, and other fossils all around the world, testify of catastrophic destruction and burial.
Focus in: The World’s a Graveyard

Evidence 3: Rapidly deposited sediment layers spread across vast areas

We find rock layers that can be traced all the way across continents—even between continents—and physical features in those strata indicate they were deposited rapidly. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone and Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon can be traced across the entire United States, up into Canada, and even across the Atlantic Ocean to England. The chalk beds of England (the white cliffs of Dover) can be traced across Europe into the Middle East and are also found in the Midwest of the United States and in Western Australia. Inclined (sloping) layers within the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon are testimony to 10,000 cubic miles of sand being deposited by huge water currents within days.
Focus in: Transcontinental Rock Layers

Evidence 4: Sediment transported long distances

We find that the sediments in those widespread, rapidly deposited rock layers had to be eroded from distant sources and carried long distances by fast-moving water. For example, the sand for the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon (Arizona) had to be eroded and transported from the northern portion of what is now the United States and Canada. Furthermore, water current indicators (such as ripple marks) preserved in rock layers show that for “300 million years” water currents were consistently flowing from northeast to southwest across all of North and South America, which, of course, is only possible over weeks during a global Flood.
Focus in:  Sand Transported Cross Country

Evidence 5: Rapid or no erosion between strata

We find evidence of rapid erosion, or even of no erosion, between rock layers. Flat, knife-edge boundaries between rock layers indicate continuous deposition of one layer after another, with no time for erosion. For example, there is no evidence of any “missing” millions of years (of erosion) in the flat boundary between two well-known layers of Grand Canyon—the Coconino Sandstone and the Hermit Formation. Another impressive example of flat boundaries at Grand Canyon is the Redwall Limestone and the strata beneath it.
Focus in:  No Slow and Gradual Erosion 

Evidence 6: Many strata laid down in rapid succession

Rocks do not normally bend; they break because they are hard and brittle. But in many places we find whole sequences of strata that were bent without fracturing, indicating that all the rock layers were rapidly deposited and folded while still wet and pliable before final hardening. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone in Grand Canyon is folded at a right angle (90°) without evidence of breaking. Yet this folding could only have occurred after the rest of the layers had been deposited, supposedly over “480 million years,” while the Tapeats Sandstone remained wet and pliable.
Focus in:  Rock Layers Folded, Not Fractured

What now?

The Bible’s history is reliable throughout—from the creation of man from the dust of the ground to the worldwide Flood to the coming of Jesus Christ. But just reading the evidence isn’t enough. The message of salvation founded in the Bible's history is also true, and, God wants us to accept the gift of salvation He freely offers us.

The evidence is real. God has revealed Himself to us in His Word and in His creation (Romans 1:20).
How will you respond?

https://answersingenesis.org/the-flood/global/worldwide-flood-evidence/



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« Reply #2131 on: 06 July 2017, 14:08:55 PM »

nonsense.
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« Reply #2132 on: 06 July 2017, 15:54:39 PM »

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The Bible’s history is reliable throughout—from the creation of man from the dust of the ground to the worldwide Flood to the coming of Jesus Christ.   
  But you have previously posted that the Garden of Eden story is a allegory.
All your "proofs" of a flood, are shown to be false by the evidence of plate tectonics. It is now possible to measure the speed at which the plates are moving, a few centimetres per year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_tectonics
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« Reply #2133 on: 06 July 2017, 21:52:35 PM »

Fossil Gaps 7


In a published interview, Dr. Niles Eldredge, an invertebrate paleontologist at the American Museum of Natural History, stated:

“But the smooth transition from one form of life to another which is implied in the theory is...not borne out by the facts. The search for “missing links” between various living creatures, like humans and apes, is probably fruitless...because they probably never existed as distinct transitional types...But no one has yet found any evidence of such transitional creatures. This oddity has been attributed to gaps in the fossil record which gradualists expected to fill when rock strata of the proper age had been found. In the last decade, however, geologists have found rock layers of all divisions of the last 500 million years and no transitional forms were contained in them. If it is not the fossil record which is incomplete then it must be the theory.” “Missing, Believed Nonexistent,” Manchester Guardian (The Washington Post Weekly), Vol. 119, No. 22, 26 November 1978, p. 1.

[From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown]
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« Reply #2134 on: 06 July 2017, 22:15:55 PM »

 Dr. Niles Eldredge   is a proponent of Punctuated equilibrium (also called punctuated equilibria) is a theory in evolutionary biology which proposes that once species appear in the fossil record they will become stable, showing little evolutionary change for most of their geological history. This state is called stasis. When significant evolutionary change occurs, the theory proposes that it is generally restricted to rare and geologically rapid events of branching speciation called cladogenesis. Cladogenesis is the process by which a species splits into two distinct species, rather than one species gradually transforming into another.[1]

Punctuated equilibrium is commonly contrasted against phyletic gradualism, the idea that evolution generally occurs uniformly and by the steady and gradual transformation of whole lineages (called anagenesis). In this view, evolution is seen as generally smooth and continuous.

The fact that the process takes billions of years is not disputed.
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« Reply #2135 on: 06 July 2017, 22:23:08 PM »

Dr. Niles Eldredge   is a proponent of Punctuated equilibrium (also called punctuated equilibria) is a theory in evolutionary biology which proposes that once species appear in the fossil record they will become stable, showing little evolutionary change for most of their geological history. This state is called stasis. When significant evolutionary change occurs, the theory proposes that it is generally restricted to rare and geologically rapid events of branching speciation called cladogenesis. Cladogenesis is the process by which a species splits into two distinct species, rather than one species gradually transforming into another.[1]

Punctuated equilibrium is commonly contrasted against phyletic gradualism, the idea that evolution generally occurs uniformly and by the steady and gradual transformation of whole lineages (called anagenesis). In this view, evolution is seen as generally smooth and continuous.

The fact that the process takes billions of years is not disputed.

Yes it is.
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« Reply #2136 on: 07 July 2017, 2:36:25 AM »

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The fact that the process takes billions of years is not disputed.

Yes it is.


Not by Eldredge
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« Reply #2137 on: 13 July 2017, 2:51:16 AM »

Fossil Gaps 8


Gould and Eldredge claimed transitional fossils are missing because relatively rapid evolutionary jumps (which they called punctuated equilibria) occurred over these gaps. They did not explain how this could happen.

Many geneticists are shocked by the proposal of Gould and Eldredge. Why would they propose something so contradictory to genetics? Gould and Eldredge were forced to say that evolution must proceed in jumps. Never explained, in genetic and mathematical terms, is how such large jumps could occur. To some, this desperation is justified.

“...the gradual morphological transitions between presumed ancestors and descendants, anticipated by most biologists, are missing.” David E. Schindel (Curator of Invertebrate Fossils, Peabody Museum of Natural History), “The Gaps in the Fossil Record,” Nature, Vol. 297, 27 May 1982, p. 282.

“Despite the bright promise that paleontology provides a means of ‘seeing’ evolution, it has presented some nasty difficulties for evolutionists the most notorious of which is the presence of ‘gaps’ in the fossil record. Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them.” David B. Kitts (School of Geology and Geophysics, University of Oklahoma), “Paleontology and Evolutionary Theory,” Evolution, Vol. 28, September 1974, p. 467.

“In spite of the immense amount of the paleontological material and the existence of long series of intact stratigraphic sequences with perfect records for the lower categories, transitions between the higher categories are missing.” Goldschmidt, p. 98.

“When a new phylum, class, or order appears, there follows a quick, explosive (in terms of geological time) diversification so that practically all orders or families known appear suddenly and without any apparent transitions.” Ibid., p. 97.

“There is no fossil record establishing historical continuity of structure for most characters that might be used to assess relationships among phyla.” Katherine G. Field et al., “Molecular Phylogeny of the Animal Kingdom,” Science, Vol. 239, 12 February 1988, p. 748.

[From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown]
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« Reply #2138 on: 13 July 2017, 14:48:01 PM »

So what?
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« Reply #2139 on: 14 July 2017, 0:45:35 AM »

 If the universe was created with the appearance of age, then the fossil record should be complete.
But it is not.

Then, either your god is incompetent, or the world is really ancient, and the record is incomplete because we have yet to find more fossils.
Considering that the chances of a dead creature being fossilized are less than one in a million, it is amazing that we have as much as we have.

I would encourage people following this thread to read: The Making of the Fittest: DNA and the Ultimate Forensic Record of Evolution
by Sean B. Carroll.
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« Reply #2140 on: 18 July 2017, 1:23:52 AM »

If the universe was created with the appearance of age, then the fossil record should be complete.
But it is not.

Why do you believe that?

Quote
Then, either your god is incompetent, or the world is really ancient, and the record is incomplete because we have yet to find more fossils.

Well, we have found billions of fossils, millions of which have been examined and categorized, and not one transition has been found.

Quote
Considering that the chances of a dead creature being fossilized are less than one in a million, it is amazing that we have as much as we have.

Where did you get that figure? The Flood accounts for most of the fossils, which were fossilized about 4000 years ago.
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« Reply #2141 on: 18 July 2017, 15:24:41 PM »

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  If the universe was created with the appearance of age, then the fossil record should be complete.
But it is not.

Why do you believe that?

I don't. Creationists do. 

Simply stated, the idea of "creation with appearance of age" means that when God created, those things which He created might superficially have looked as if they had a history. When Adam was created, he no doubt looked like a mature adult, fully able to walk, talk, care for the garden, etc. When God created fruit trees, they were already bearing fruit. In each case, what He created was functionally complete right from the start—able to fulfill the purpose for which it was created. Stars, created on Day Four, had to be seen to perform their purpose of usefulness in telling time; therefore, their light had to be visible on Earth right from the start. God's evaluation that the completed creation was "very good" (Genesis 1:31) necessitated that it be functionally complete, operating in harmony, with each part fulfilling the purpose for which it was created.

If a scientific observer today, with no knowledge of Adam's creation, traveled back in time to Day Seven and tried to determine Adam's age (or the age of a rock, or the age of a star), how could it be done? The scientist would rely on today's human growth rates (or rates of radioactive decay, or the speed of light), and calculate how long it would take for this state of maturity to develop, and would come to a wrong conclusion.
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« Reply #2142 on: 18 July 2017, 21:59:05 PM »

Creationists pick and chose what bits of the Bible they take literally.


Creationists mock flat earthers by insisting no one ‘really believes the Bible’s completely literal’
Travis Gettys:
Some creationists are mocking flat earthers for taking the Bible too literally.
The Friendly Atheist blog flagged a video produced by Answers in Genesis featuring scientists Georgia Purdom and Danny Faulkner, who laughed out loud at theories floated by people who believe the world is actually flat.
“Some people, they accuse us of believing everything in the Bible is literal,” said Faulkner, an astronomer. “Well, we don’t believe everything in the Bible is literal. There are many idioms, there are figures of speech. There (is) also imagery, particularly in the poetic and the prophetic passages.
“For instance, Jesus said, ‘I am the door,'” Faulkner said. “Well, did he have hinges? Did he have a latch on it? Did he have a handle? Of course not. We understand that it’s not a literal door. So nobody really believes that the Bible’s completely literal.”
Purdom, a molecular geneticist, agreed the Bible should be read as written and not taken literally.
Faulkner blamed atheists for inspiring the flat earth movement, whose adherents denigrate the majority as “globe heads.”
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« Reply #2143 on: 19 July 2017, 1:50:32 AM »

Here is the flat earth " christian" point of view




Philip Stallings is the Founder of the Biblical Flat Earth Society, Reformed Christian Apologist, Theonomist, and a Former Seminary Student
The Biblical Flat Earth: The Teaching From Scripture
As a Christian, the flat earth begins and ends with Scripture. While the evidence continues to mount, and has, for the flat earth, I must begin by saying, "the Scriptures told you so."
Just like so many people have been deceived regarding evolution, the big bang, and heliocentrism, so to have many been duped into believing that we are on a spinning ball. The ramifications of these lies have wide sweeping effects upon every sphere of life and society. I would like to begin with the most controversial verse in Isaiah.
"It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in" Is. 40:22
I recall in my apologetic days, that when atheists would make fun of the Bible, they would constantly bring up this verse. The typical Christian response was to point out that the word circle here is, in fact, proving that the earth was a ball. I remembered even then thinking that didn't seem right to me. We all know what a circle is and it is not a ball. In fact, the Hebrew word used in this verse is "khoog" (pronounced chug). The word literally means, circle, circuit, and compass. In all of these words, none of them conjure up a picture of a ball. Furthermore if the earth were a ball, and God wished to communicate that here, then it would have required using the Hebrew word "dure" (pronounced dur). The Hebrew definition for dure is, a circle, pile, or ball. Isn't that interesting? If the shape of the earth was intended to be conveyed as a "ball" then the Hebrew word "dure" would have been the word used. It wasn't. What we were given instead was the Hebrew word "khoog."
As you can see above, the flat earth depictions are exactly that, a circle. Furthermore, notice that in the verse that man is dwelling in the earth. The Hebrew word here is "yashab" and literally means to "sit down," and by implication means to dwell, to remain, and to settle. It would be quite difficult to sit down, remain, and settle upon a spinning ball, wouldn't it?
Another interesting verse for me is when Jesus is taken up to a high mountain by Satan and shown the kingdoms of the world.
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. - Matthew 5:8
Notice that this mountain was "very high." In the Greek here, the word for high is "hupselos" and means literally high or lofty. Add to that the Greek word "very" which is "lian" and we now have a very intentional description of this.
If the world is a ball, the higher one goes the less one would be seeing of the earth because the curvature would constantly be falling and you would have to look further and further down, however. If the earth were flat, then the higher you go, the more you see while the horizon stays at eye level. The horizon rises to the eye. It seems to me that Jesus was taken to very high mountain and could literally see all of the kingdoms of the world.
Some may respond with objections to this interpretation suggesting that this particular event is merely speaking symbolically. To that I would ask, what were the kingdoms a symbol of if not of real literal kingdoms? Was Satan a symbol as well? What about Jesus? Was He a symbol too? Obviously that sort of interpretation for this particular verse does not work at all.
Another interesting example from Scripture is found in Joshua 10 where God caused the "sun to stand still."
"And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day." - Joshua 10:13
If the sun is the center of the universe and the earth is orbiting around it, then for this event to occur, it would have to have been the earth standing still, not the sun, however. If the earth is flat and the sun and moon rotate above us, it would make perfect sense for the sun to stand still in order to prolong the day here.
The Teaching Of Scripture Regarding The Firmament:
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. - Genesis 1:6
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years. - Genesis 1:14
Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea. - Job 9:8
Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass? - Job 37:18
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalms 19:1
Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. - Psalms 102:25
Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain. - Psalms 104:2   
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. - Isaiah 44:24
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. - Isaiah 45:12 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. - Isaiah 48:13
He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. - Jeremiah 10:12
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. - Zechariah 12:1
The Teaching Of Scripture Regarding The Waters And The Heaven of Heavens Above:
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. - Genesis 1:6
Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. - Deuteronomy 10:14
Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. - Psalms 148:4
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water. - 2 Peter 3:5
Revelation 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Teaching Of Scripture Regarding The Earth Being Immovable:
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. - Joshua 10:13
Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved. - 1 Chronicles 16:30
The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. - Psalms 93:1
Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously. - Psalms 96:10
Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. - Psalms 104:5
Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down. - Isaiah 38:8
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. - Isaiah 45:18
The Teaching Of Scripture Regarding The Flat Earth:
And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come. - Jeremiah 49:36
Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land. - Ezekiel 7:2
The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth. - Daniel 4:11
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in. - Isaiah 40:22
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them. - Matthew 4:8
And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth. - Acts 10:11
I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me. - Acts 11:5
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. - Revelation 7:1
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. - Revelation 20:8
The number of verses that teach the earth is a round spinning ball orbiting the sun? 0
Some would argue that these verses were meant to convey the sun from our perspective. I would have to ask: why would the standard of truth and the Sovereign God wish to communicate the truth of the earth He created from OUR perspective? This sort of reasoning is what led to many false teaching regarding the creation account. For them, they start with the presupposition that evolution is true, and then reason that God only communicated the creation account through poetic symbolism and yet the same ones would use the "circle" reference as anything but a symbol.
The Scriptures are the source and standard of truth and would not be if the information that is being communicated is based merely upon man and his "perspective."
Also, the verses which speak about the "four corners" of the earth only makes sense in respect to the flat earth. If the earth were a ball there wouldn't be one corner, let alone four. Yes, I recognize that the "four corners" could be merely an "all encompassing" reference, however. It still stands as a mental thorn in the minds of those that wish to believe we are on a spinning ball.
Finally, I wish to say that, as Christians, we stand upon the Word of God on these matters. If one believes that they should begin with this evil system and use the Bible as a footnote, you have already been defeated.
"And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." - Jesus Christ (John 8:32)
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« Reply #2144 on: 19 July 2017, 22:01:54 PM »

Fossil Gaps 9


At the most fundamental level, a big gap exists between forms of life whose cells have nuclei (eukaryotes, such as plants, animals, and fungi) and those that don’t (prokaryotes such as bacteria and blue-green algae) (b).

b.    “The prokaryotes came first; eukaryotes (all plants, animals, fungi and protists) evolved from them, and to this day biologists hotly debate how this transition took place, with about 20 different theories on the go.... [What was thought to be an intermediate between prokaryotes and eukaryotes] is no longer tenable.” Katrin Henze and William Martin, “Essence of Mitochondria,” Nature, Vol. 426, 13 November 2003, p. 127.

[From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown]
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